The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:31 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Siambr, and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equitably. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitute Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda. And I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Siambr as to those joining virtually.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Questions to the First Minister is our first agenda item, and the first question is from Michelle Brown.

Building Back Greener

Michelle Brown AC: 1. What plans does Welsh Government have to build back greener after the COVID-19 pandemic? OQ55625

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank the Member for that question. Across the Welsh Government, we prepare for a green reconstruction post COVID. The actions we are taking will generate a more sustainable and resilient future economy, tackle the climate emergency, and address the decline in biodiversity.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Your friends at the Trades Union Congress have said this green recovery must be good for the environment, and the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales says that we have a once-in-a-lifetime—

Michelle, can I just stop you there? I think we might have missed the start of your supplementary question. If you can start again.

Michelle Brown AC: Okay. Thank you for your answer, First Minister. Your friends at the Trades Union Congress have said that any recovery must benefit the environment and the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales says we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to come up with visionary ideas and transformative investment to address health, the economy, and the ongoing climate and nature crises, for the sake of Wales's long-term future. She says we need a new definition of prosperity based on well-being and a fairer, greener way of living. So, what's one of your imaginative ideas? Build yet another road—the red route—a road that won't preserve nature and the environment, as the TUC, the future generations commissioner and the Welsh people want, but will destroy it. You scrapped the M4 relief road because it would damage the environment in south Wales. So, it's a shame for the people of north Wales that you don't care as much about us, but instead care more about lorry drivers who want to cross into and out of Ireland. Initially, you said it was chosen because it was the cheapest option, but the cost estimate has already risen by £20 million. We need every penny we have to be spent on recovery projects. When will the Government stop the rhetoric and put the money towards projects that will help our recovery, and do so in a way that does not destroy forever ancient woodlands and farmland?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I have with me here, as Members can see, the stakeholder briefing that was distributed to Members and others about the plans for development of the Flintshire corridor scheme. In case the Member hasn't had an opportunity to see that document, let me just assure her that it makes it clear that the stage we are at with the red route is a preliminary design process, which will look at all the environmental and engineering issues raised during consultation in more detail. The preferred route will be developed further as a result of that consideration, including environmental, traffic and economic appraisals, and, as the stakeholder briefing makes clear, all of that will be designed to minimise the impact of the improvements—the very necessary improvements—on local residents, the landscape, air quality and biodiversity. So, I don't dismiss for a moment the concerns that the Member has raised. They're right and proper ones, but the process that we are embarked upon is designed exactly to explore with local people and with local stakeholders the issues the Member raises and to resolve them in a way that takes account of those important matters.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, obviously if we are to build back and build back greener, it's important that businesses can survive the various stages of either regional or local lockdowns, or indeed national lockdowns. What confidence can you give businesses that they will be there at the end of this coronavirus outbreak, and in particular that, once we do suppress it now—the second time of asking—there's not going to be a third lockdown later in the winter, a fourth lockdown, which will have a massive impact on business and business confidence, as well as on liquidity of those businesses to be there to build back better, build back greener?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member makes two points there. He will welcome, I know, the announcement by my colleague Ken Skates of £60 million to help businesses specifically affected by the local health protection restrictions, and my colleague willbe making a statement on the floor of the Senedd later this afternoon and will be able to explain more of the detail of that then.
The second point that Andrew R.T. Davies makes is about events further into the year. And there, what I want to say is this: that will depend, crucially, on the extent to which Welsh citizens continue to observe all the measures that will make a difference to further spikes in coronavirus in the future. So, the Government will do all the things that we can do. The health service, local authorities, public health organisations, the police—all those organisations that are working so hard to try and protect people and keep Wales safe—will play their part. But, in the end, coronavirus spreads when people meet together in circumstances that they shouldn't, when they travel unnecessarily, when they come into contact with others in ways that could be avoided, and the chances we have of avoiding further spikes and further local restrictions depends crucially on every one of us playing our part.

Regional Investment

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 2. What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Prime Minister regarding the UK Government's proposals for regional investment in Wales? OQ55600

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, no discussions have been offered by the Prime Minister on this matter. We discuss our plans with other UK Government Ministers, but progress remains slow, despite only three months remaining until EU funding enters its final phase.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Well, First Minister, I'm disappointed to find that no discussions have gone on at that very top level of Government, but I don't put it at your door whatsoever. In Wales, with our established reserved-powers model of devolution and the spending priorities flowing from clear, legally constituted policy framework underpinned by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we can argue in the Senedd over the social and economic and environmental priorities, our success and failures, in an open and accountable and democratic way, and we do. But, I have a worry, First Minister. In England, prior to the last general election, we now know that nine out of 10 of the top beneficiaries of increased education spend were Conservative marginal seats in affluent areas. And the National Audit Office has revealed that some of the most deprived parts of England were left out of a £3.6 billion scheme to regenerate town centres. Sixty-one of those towns were chosen by Ministers led by the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, Robert Jenrick. All but one were Tory-held seats or targets.
So, First Minister, do you share my worries that, in the absence of clarity on the UK shared prosperity fund, the absence of engagement by the Prime Minister and the absence of a UK policy framework, there is a clear and present danger that Mr Johnson may be persuaded by those with—[Inaudible.]—and lack of understanding of devolution to view replacement EU funds as an opportunity for party political gerrymandering in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think Huw Irranca-Davies makes a very important point, and he does so with all the authority of someone who has chaired our regional investment steering group, who chairs the European structural funds monitoring committee and chairs our European advisory group. So, the things that he says to the Senedd come with all the authority and the information that he has been able to draw together in those very important jobs.
Now, the plans for future investment in Wales that he has drawn up with those colleagues, a made-in-Wales arrangement reflecting international best practice, meeting the specific needs of different sectors and parts of Wales with greater delegation of decision making to regions, that is an approach that has been endorsed not simply by the Senedd, but by the all-party parliamentary group chaired by our colleague Stephen Kinnockat Westminster, the Welsh Local Government Association, Universities Wales, the Financial Standards Authority, the Confederation of British Industry, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and independent think tanks like the Joseph Rowntree Foundation.
The danger is now that, in pursuit of narrow sectional party political advantage, the UK Government is engineering a position where they will take decisions away from the democratically elected Senedd and put them in the hands of an unelected—as far as Wales is concerned—Secretary of State for Wales, and I'm afraid all the warnings that Huw Irranca-Davies has made this afternoon are very likely to turn out to be true unless we can stop those plans in their tracks, and we will be working as hard as we can to achieve exactly that.

Russell George AC: First Minister, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report into the future of regional development and public investment in Wales found that the labour market links between the communities of mid Wales and south-west Wales weren't particularly very strong. That recommendation is of no surprise to me. The report proceeded to recommend that it would be beneficial to separate mid Wales from south-west Wales to create four distinct economic regions, as opposed to the current three. I wonder what considerations you and the Welsh Government have given to this particular recommendation and the other recommendations for regional investment within the OECD report.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Russell George for that question. He draws attention to the very important OECD report that we commissioned, as part of, as I said earlier, our determination that regional economic development policy in Wales should be informed by international best practice. The report is being considered by the groups chaired by Huw Irranca-Davies, and that will inform our thinking in the Welsh Government and we will respond in full to the OECD's recommendations. But the point I make more generally, Llywydd, is this: that the report gives us in this Senedd—Members here—the opportunity to bring all their experience and local knowledge to bear on the way that these decisions are made in Wales. The idea that these decisions should be taken away from us and made by a person sitting behind a desk in Whitehall, who will know very, very little about mid Wales, south-west Wales or any other parts that need to benefit from our funding in future, I think poses a real danger to us and would mean that, in future, the sorts of questions that Russell George has very properly raised here this afternoon would no longer be part of our considerations or our decision making.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, there's now been a series of important policy statements issued by Welsh Government Ministers to the media instead of this Chamber. Of course, it's vital that Members are given the opportunity to respond to Welsh Government announcements on behalf of the people of Wales. Last week, you chose to make an announcement to the media that affected hundreds of thousands of people right across south Wales. You failed to answer questions on the timings of your statement, and this week you've decided not to even turn up in person. First Minister, that disregard for Welsh democracy is unacceptable, and will you now guarantee that any future decisions will firstly be made in this Chamber so that, in the spirit of openness and transparency, elected Members will have the opportunity to appropriately scrutinise the Welsh Government?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, you said in introducing this afternoon's session that every Member of the Senedd is equally able to participate, whether that is remotely or in person, so I will leave you to deal with the remarks that the leader of the opposition made about where people choose to take part in these proceedings.
I say to people in Wales all the time that they should avoid unnecessary journeys, and I believe that I'm equally able to answer questions in the way that we are doing now as I would be if I were in the Chamber. It is entirely wrong for the Government to ask people in Wales to take action in one direction and then not to behave in the same way ourselves. I think the Member is quite wrong to suggest that somehow, because I'm answering questions in the way that I am, that that is not satisfactory. But that's a point for you, Llywydd, I believe, rather than for me.
As to the other point, it's plainly nonsensical. I answer questions on the floor of this Assembly, I make statements on the floor of this Assembly absolutely regularly. I did so all the way through the recess, when his Government at Westminster wasn't available to answer a single question from any elected representative, and there's nothing at all that this Government has to apologise for or answer for in being available and answerable to the Senedd of Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm not going to take any lectures off the First Minister. I put it to you, First Minister, that you can turn up to your Government offices in Cathays Park, but you can't turn up to the heart of Welsh democracy, which is also your place of work. And when it comes to making statements outside this Chamber, I'm afraid you've got a track record as a Government. More than 2 million people across Wales are now living under your Government's restrictions; the very least that you can do is offer their elected representatives a chance to question you on your decision making, and that's why firstly making statements to this Chamber is so important.
Now, there are some very real concerns about the impact of local lockdowns on people who are living alone, and it's vital that the Welsh Government looks at the restrictions with a view to finding some way of allowing single-person households to mix with another person. There has been little recognition of the serious impact that this could have on people's mental health, particularly given that so many single-person households have already had to shield for most of this year. And I know you've said that you're concerned about those elderly people living on their own who, at the moment, are not able to mix with anybody else indoors. Therefore, can you tell us what you’re doing about it, because you’re aware of the Scottish model that allows a single person to form an extended household with one other? Knowing how desperately isolated some people across Wales must be feeling, can you tell us why the Welsh Government hasn't already changed the regulations in relation to single-person households, as I'm sure you'd agree, we have to offer these people hope?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I believe I'm at the heart of Welsh democracy now, and I'm answering the Member's questions, so I continue to fail to see what he thinks he has to complain about.
As for people who live in single-person households, I think that is an important issue. I've been discussing it with leaders of local authorities who are under local restrictions. I've been taking an interest in the Scottish model of doing so. It is being considered as part of the 21-day review that we carry out here in Wales. So, in Wales, we have stuck throughout to the pattern of reviewing our regulations every three weeks. That consideration for single-adult households is part of the current three-week review, which was discussed by Cabinet colleagues this morning. I'm hopeful that we will be able to complete the necessary regulations and the advice that we need to take from the chief medical officer and others in order to complete our consideration of it within the three-week review that culminates this week.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, as more and more people across Wales are now living under stricter restrictions, it's absolutely essential that the Welsh Government's testing programme is as effective as possible, and that capacity is being used. Last weekend, you told us that, currently in Wales, we’re operating around 2,000 to 3,000 tests a day from Welsh capacity, which is even significantly under the 9,000 tests a day target the Welsh Government initially promised. And yet, a week earlier, you said that an additional 28,000 tests per week could be processed, with further capacity available to manage outbreaks across Wales.
First Minister, it's absolutely vital that the system is capable of responding to spikes in testing that arise from outbreaks, and yet you've made it clear that for Wales to reach its full capacity, it would be difficult on a day-to-day basis. Given that you've invested a further £32 million to speed up turnaround times for coronavirus test results, can you tell us what fundamental changes have been delivered to our laboratory services to increase their capacity and resilience, and what urgent steps are you taking to ensure that all labs in Wales are open and working? And more generally, how confident are you that Wales has a testing system that is capable of supporting our people over the winter months?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think if the Member wants to quote me he should try to do so accurately. I said at the weekend that the testing numbers this week would be over 5,000 and that it would rise to 8,000 within the Welsh system very shortly. The real struggle we face in the Welsh system at the moment are the problems faced by the lighthouse labs for which his party are responsible. Now, we've had an assurance from those lighthouse labs that they will be able to increase the service they provide to Wales from the 9,400 tests we currently have to 14,000 by the start of October and 19,000 by the start of November. I hope very much that that will turn out to be true and that the lighthouse labs will be able to return to the level of service that they were providing to Wales some four weeks ago. But if you want to know where the struggle in Wales has been over recent weeks, it has been in the pressure that the lighthouse labs system has come under and the difficulties that his Government at Westminster have experienced in coping with those pressures and putting that system back on track again.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Many of us will have been surprised and somewhat alarmed at the scenes from the top of Snowdon over the weekend, with long queues of people attempting to reach the summit with complete disregard, it would appear, for social distancing guidelines, but it raises a wider issue of course. Many of these will have been visitors and there's nothing set out in the guidelines at the moment that stops someone from a COVID hotspot elsewhere in the UK travelling to areas of Wales currently with low community transmission. Why is it the case, First Minister, that you can't travel from Aberafan to Abergavenny, but you can travel from Manchester to Mynytho?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, can I begin by agreeing with Adam Price that those were alarming pictures? Let me make a number of points in reply, however. To begin with, it's really important and we've had lots of anxiety over the summer in holiday destinations about people travelling from elsewhere in the United Kingdom and the risk that that might pose to the spread of the virus in those areas. Actually, the evidence has turned out to be much more positive than that and we don't have examples where the virus has got out of control in those holiday areas because it's been imported from elsewhere. So, I think it's very important to be guided by the evidence and the evidence is that that hasn't caused difficulties, and I think that that is a tribute to two things: it is because people have heard our message about, 'Visit Wales safely', and it's a tribute to the efforts that have been made in those communities to welcome people from elsewhere, which is so important to the local economy, while doing it in a way that does not cause a risk to public health.
However, I think the Member makes an important point. In Wales, when we get a hotspot area, we ask people not to travel outside that area other than for certain narrowly specified purposes, and going on holiday is not one of them. I wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday urging him to do the same in England. I don't think it is right for us to institute a set of border controls trying to prevent people from elsewhere visiting Wales: I think that would lead us into all sorts of anomalous and difficult territory. But I do think that as we act to prevent people who live in hotspots in Wales from travelling to England and taking the risk of the virus with them, so the Prime Minister in his capacity as the Prime Minister of England in this case ought to do the same to prevent people from English hotspots from travelling elsewhere in England to Wales or other parts of the United Kingdom because of the risk that that undoubtedly poses. I wrote to him yesterday asking him to do that, urging him to call a COBRA meeting for this week, as the First Minister of Scotland did at the weekend, and I look forward to a reply.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, the summer has been an extremely anxious time for young people, as you know. As a consequence of the A-level debacle, many were left not knowing if they were going to university at all, let alone which one. Having arrived on campus last week, the worry now will be whether they will be allowed to return home for Christmas. Students like Meg, a first-year law student from Brecon, studying at Bath, need clarity. She says the message from the Government is clearly confusing and could definitely be communicated better, particularly for students who've moved to a different country with different regulations. So, can you answer these specific questions? To what extent is education exempt from rules allowing students to form new households? Can students studying and living in a restricted area in Wales but who live elsewhere return home? Can students studying and living in areas where no restrictions apply travel home, even if home is within an area of local restrictions? And finally, can students studying in one locally restricted area travel to another locally restricted area if this means getting home?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the rules governing young people in Wales are the same rules as govern everybody else. I am not prepared to single out young people for adverse treatment in the way that is sometimes being suggested. I agree with what Adam Price said in opening that second set of questions, that young people have had a very difficult time during coronavirus, and the Welsh Government with the sector in Wales is working very hard to make sure that even in these most difficult sets of circumstances, young people's welfare goes on being properly safeguarded, that their access to a high-quality education is preserved throughout this term, and that they are not treated any differently to any other Welsh citizen. And the answers to Adam Price's questions are that the rules that would apply to any person in Wales would apply to a young person who is studying as well, and all of that is available to people who need to have answers to those questions, both on the Welsh Government website, but also in the specific advice from different higher education institutions working hard to communicate to people who have arrived to study at them.

Adam Price AC: On 4 September, First Minister, SAGE warned that there was a significant risk that higher education could amplify local and national transmission of COVID-19. The risk, they said, required national oversight, and once again, they identified testing as critically important. On 15 July, you said, 'Today we can carry out 15,000 tests a day.' On Sunday, you said, '15,000 is not a sustainable day-to-day target.' So as universities have been opening their doors, the testing system is failing, and if the problem is the lighthouse lab network, why did you buy into it and place your trust in it in the way that you did? Now, the advice from SAGE at the beginning of this month was that a co-ordinated outbreak response strategy should urgently be put in place between Government, HE institutions and local public health teams, but it seems currently, First Minister, there is no clear plan to support students, no clear plan to support the higher education sector. Christmas is only 12 weeks away; when can we expect that plan?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, that plan exists, and the Member is quite wrong to just spray around accusations that it doesn't exist when it very plainly does, and so very many people are working so hard to make sure that students in Wales are well looked after. He is quite wrong to say that the testing system is failing in Wales. We have over 100,000 students in Wales and about 100 of them have been tested as having a positive case of coronavirus. Of our TTP system, 93 per cent of close contacts continue to be contacted, 94 per cent of positive cases reached—85 per cent of those within 24 hours, 92 per cent within 48 hours. The system in Wales—and indeed the system in Scotland—is standing up to the testing time that we are going through. It's very much unlike what is happening elsewhere.
As far as the lighthouse labs are concerned, I was urged many times on the floor of the Senedd to make sure that Wales took full advantage of the capacity that it would provide to us. It was right that we should do that, and as I said, until a number of weeks ago, the system was serving Wales very well. We want to see that system restored. We want to see it back providing the volume of tests and the timeliness of tests that we know Wales needs. I urge UK Ministers to make sure that they do everything they can to put us in that position, and then we will be very glad indeed, again, to be part of that system, which is providing thousands of tests to Welsh people and is part of the infrastructure that we will all be relying upon as we go further into the autumn and winter.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, when you put Cardiff into local lockdown, and through the force of law required people to work from home if reasonably practicable, did you consider the potential impact of that on our proceedings in the Senedd? Now, if you're correct when you say Members are equally able to participate, whether remotely or in person, doesn't that imply that it is reasonably practicable for Members to work from home? And if Members take a different view, given that is law, may they be receiving a knock on the door from South Wales Police? You said earlier that, 'My colleague will be making a statement on the floor of the Chamber later today'. Can I infer from that that some Ministers will be coming in person to the Chamber, even if you will not yourself? And you haven't said whether you're speaking from a well-appointed hut at the rear of your garden, or whether you're speaking from your office in Cathays Park. If you are speaking from your office, then presumably you've determined it's not reasonably practicable to work from home, so why don't you come to the Chamber? And, overall, when you say people must work from home by law if reasonable practicable, would you ask people to do as you say, or to follow the examples set by our Presiding Officer and the leader of the opposition?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I can assure the Member that when the decision is taken to impose local restrictions in any part of Wales, then all aspects of that decision are carefully considered. It is for individual Members to make a judgment about how they stay within the law. It is reasonably practicable for me to work from my office in Cathays Park, because in order to be able to answer Members' questions, I need the support of staff in the Welsh Government, who help me to make sure that I am as well equipped as I can be to provide answers that Members have a right to expect. So, it is reasonably practicable for me to work from here because I live in Cardiff and need to cross no boundaries to get here. Other Members are bound by the regulations, just as every member of Welsh society in areas where local restrictions are in place, and I think people have an obligation to make sure that they are carefully considering the legal position they are in. I'm on the floor of the Senedd, Llywydd. As you made clear, virtual or physical participation is identical. I'm on the floor of the Senedd now answering questions. My colleague Ken Skates will answer questions remotely, and he will be on the floor as well.

Mark Reckless AC: First Minister, you say you're working from your office because it's reasonably practicable to do so, but isn't the law that you must work from home if it is reasonably practicable to do so? And given it's equally possible to participate remotely and physically, would not that be the case? Yet you choose not to come to the Chamber, just as you chose last week to make announcements not in the Chamber, but via the media. You say all these decisions and announcements and regulations that you keep on passing with great variety and regularity around coronavirus are carefully considered, on which note, could I ask whether your policy of making everyone leave pubs and restaurants at the same time is working to help us build herd immunity?
Could I also ask what is happening in terms of our democracy and proposals chaired by an official in your Government to consider postponing the election and extending the term of this Welsh Parliament beyond five years? Wouldn't that be extraordinary given the democratic norms that we have? In the United States, we see the first debate between the presidential contenders tonight. I note that Donald Trump wanted to delay the elections there, but that has been given very short shrift. Is it not the case that we need to vote next May, as required by law, and it would be quite wrong to extend our term further or to delay those elections? As one constituent of mine said today—and I wonder if you could answer this—if we can queue for the supermarket, surely we can queue to vote.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the regulations in place in Wales do not require people all to leave the pub at the same time; indeed, it was a very deliberate decision not to do so. In England, everybody must be on the pavement at 10 o'clock at night, whether they are halfway through a meal or have just begun to drink. They must be outside at 10 p.m. and as you have seen in other places, that is clearly causing difficulties of public order and of public health. We decided to take exactly the opposite case here in Wales. People have time after 10 o'clock to complete what they are eating and drinking, and to leave in an orderly way, spread out over that period. Exactly the opposite case obtains in Wales to the one suggested in the question.
Llywydd, let me say that I am very committed to having an election in May of next year. That is absolutely the right thing; that is what I think should happen. It is not right that this Senedd should be extended beyond its current term. I feel very strongly that the Senedd needs a democratic refresh. The opportunity for people in Wales to decide whom they wish to represent them in future should be in their hands, and it should be in their hands in May of next year.
The only point I'd put to the Member is this: none of us knows what the state of coronavirus will be at that time. Just as I want there to be an election, I want there to be an election where every Welsh citizen feels confident about being able to participate, and is not put off from participation by fears that they may have about the risks that they would run to their health if coronavirus were once again to be at a very, very difficult pitch.
So, May is a very long way away, and none of us is in a position to be able to look into that crystal ball. I share the Member's determination that we should vote in May of next year, but I simply put that one point to him: that we want an election in which every Welsh citizen feels that they can go to the polling station and is not put off from doing so because the state of public health at the time might be very off-putting to them. It's just foolish not to be willing to contemplate that and to think about how we would cope with it were we to be faced by it.

Visitor Experiences

Siân Gwenllian AC: 3. What discussions is the Welsh Government having with relevant partners about visitor experiences in Wales in 2021? OQ55621

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. The tourism sector and the future recovery of the visitor experience in Wales are discussed at regular meetings of the tourism taskforce, attended by the Minister and Deputy Minister with tourism responsibilities.

Siân Gwenllian AC: We have welcomed far more visitors than usual to tourist areas in my constituency this year. They have brought a boost of a second summer to the local economy, but the experience for the visitor and the local population hasn't always been pleasant—parking problems; travel problems; long queues, and not just on the top of Snowdon; there are also litter problems. These all have a negative impact on the visitor experience and, of course, create huge frustration for the local population. Would you agree that we must find ways of controlling too much tourism and that the Government has a prominent role in bringing all of the relevant partners together in order to forward plan for a successful season next year?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian for her supplementary questions. I agree with her on the things that we are trying to keep together. The tourism industry is extremely important to north Wales, and the solution to the problems is dependent on bringing people together around the table to think about how we can give extremely good experiences to people who come to us, that are part of the local economy, and at the same time protect the things that people come to Wales to see and enjoy.
And may I just add there, Llywydd—? I had the privilege of taking part in a ceremony on Sunday evening to note the latest milestone in ensuring world heritage site status to the slate industry in north-west Wales, and welcoming Frau Friederike Hansell and others from UNESCO who were visiting the area. That shows that people throughout the world want to come to see what we have here to offer in Wales, but the important thing to do is to do it in a way that safeguards and protects the things they want to see, and to draw in the local people, and the people in the businesses, around the table with the local authorities and Welsh Government to plan together for the future.

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, First Minister. Please forgive me if I cut across anything you've already said; unfortunately, the translation wasn't working on my computer. Many of the visitor experiences in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire are provided by microtourism businesses, whether they are eco tree lodges in the forests of Carmarthenshire or small campsites and businesses along the Pembrokeshire Coast national park. Because they are very distinct and have a particular attraction to certain groups of people, they of course have been quite badly hurt by the COVID-19 pandemic.
I did listen very carefully to your reply to Adam Price earlier about whether or not people should make a journey to see us, but I want to just read you something from Microtourism Wales, who say, 'Our members are now dealing with confused guests looking to cancel or change their holidays because they do not understand the local lockdown policies'. And yesterday, the economy Minister, during the Welsh Government press conference said, and I quote, 'It is vital that people consider carefully whether their journeys are required'.
Microtourism businesses in my patch are already financially under the water because of the earlier lockdown. Are you able to give them any other guidance as to what they should say when someone phones them up from either England or a different part of Wales and says, 'I'm going to cancel my two weeks in your treehouse in Carmarthenshire because I don't think I'm allowed to travel', or, even worse, they ask them whether they should travel or not, which puts the onus of making that decision on the operator?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I have tremendous sympathy for the businesses Angela Burns has highlighted. I was able myself to spend a short while in the holiday period in her constituency and could see just how hard people who earn a living through visitors were working to try and make up for the losses that they had sustained earlier in the year. So, the reoccurrence of coronavirus across the United Kingdom is inevitably very challenging for them. We do our best to communicate as clearly as we can through the different networks that we have, through the group that I mentioned in my answer to Siân Gwenllian that meets every week with the Welsh Government, to make sure that, through the regional tourist arrangements, we're conveying those messages.
Today, Ken Skates will make a statement on the floor of the Senedd, which will include a £20 million ring-fenced budget for hospitality and tourism, over and above the £27 million that the sector has been able to draw down from the first two iterations of the economic recovery fund. So, I hope that that will be of some help to the businesses that Angela Burns has highlighted. We were working hard with the sector to try to extend the season so that people would have been able to go on working for longer, and the difficulties that we are experiencing as the virus takes hold once again are a blow, both to those plans and to the hard-working people who have done so much to try to recoup something from the season for the businesses that they have worked so hard to build up.

COVID-19 Restrictions in Newport

John Griffiths AC: 4. Will the First Minister provide an update on COVID-19 restrictions in Newport? OQ55599

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths, Llywydd. Following a sharp increase in cases, local restrictions were introduced in Newport on 22 September. It is too early to make a definitive assessment, but the number of cases is starting to stabilise thanks to the efforts of local people. We monitor the situation daily and formally review local restrictions every week.

John Griffiths AC: First Minister, it is important for people to know that complying with restrictions to drive down cases will result in timely easing of those restrictions when it is safe to do so. So, I hear what you say about some indications that matters are moving in the right direction, but is there anything more you can say about compliance and the effectiveness of the local measures and what that might mean for the timing of the lifting of those measures? And where people in local restriction areas had pre-booked holidays that are affected, will you do all that you can to ensure that the travel industry acts responsibly and provides full and unconditional refunds?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank John Griffiths for those points. I'm happy to confirm that the daily figures that I see and am advised on by our public health colleagues have continued to show a small but sustained fall in the number of cases in the Newport county borough council area. I spoke with the chief constable of Gwent Police twice last week and was encouraged by what she had to say about the level of compliance that is being seen in those local authorities subject to local restrictions, and she repeated a point made to me earlier about Caerphilly—that people in Newport want to do the right thing; they're not looking to find ways around the rules, they want to act within the spirit of the rules because they have understood that the more we do, the faster we will get on top of that local spike and the sooner we will be able to lift those restrictions. And I'm hugely grateful, both to the citizens of Newport, but also to local authority officers and the police service, for everything they are doing to help people to do the right thing.
We'll be reviewing restrictions on Thursday of this week and I will be discussing with my officials how we might begin, step by step, to lift those local restrictions. I cannot promise at all that we will be able to begin on that journey on this Thursday, but I want to make sure we are planning for the route out of those local restrictions with local people and with local agencies so we can communicate that clearly to people who live in those localities.
As to the second important point that John Griffiths raised about holiday arrangements, he will know that the Minister for Health and Social Services wrote earlier to the travel industry; he wrote again on 23 September. I am pleased that we have received a reply from the Association of British Insurers confirming that their members are committed to supporting their customers in the circumstances that John Griffiths set out and that they are expecting to pay out £275 million in cancellation claims. What we need to see are those general sentiments, encouraging sentiments, delivered on the ground in the lives of people who have found their holidays disrupted.

Businesses in Bridgend

Carwyn Jones AC: 5. What support has the Welsh Government provided to businesses in Bridgend during the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55613

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Carwyn Jones, Llywydd? Four hundred and seventy-four Bridgend micro and small and medium-sized enterprises have been awarded funding through the Wales-only economic resilience fund, totalling £88.1 million, with at least 2,500 jobs safeguarded up until the present time. We will continue to support businesses throughout Wales to stay viable through the pandemic and to respond to the inevitable challenges of Brexit.

Carwyn Jones AC: I thank the First Minister for that answer. Businesses in Bridgend and across Wales, First Minister, will be very pleased to hear the announcement this week, from the Minister for Economy and Transport, of an extra £60 million-worth of funding for businesses across Wales as they continue to face the challenges of coronavirus. In terms of businesses in Bridgend and across Wales, how might they go about accessing that funding and accessing help, and what sort of sums might they be reasonably expected to receive as a result of those applications?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Carwyn Jones for those supplementary questions. There's £140 million altogether in this third phase of the economic resilience fund. The eligibility checker for this latest phase will open on 5 October, and, of course, I hope that any business who, having seen the detail, think that may be eligible for help will make their way to that eligibility checker to make applications as soon as they are able to do so. Microbusinesses will be able to apply for up to £10,000; SMEs will be able to apply for up to £150,000; and large businesses will be able to apply for up to £200,000. Now, of course, there are conditions and rules that apply around all of that, but that gives, I hope, an indication of the sort of scale of help that will be available.
Llywydd, just to give another sense of how the scheme has been working: I answered questions here in the Senedd earlier in the summer about the £5 million fund that we launched at that time to provide help for particularly small businesses, sole traders and so on, and over £4 million of that £5 million has already been awarded. So, I think that that demonstrates that we have a system in place that is not only responsive to the needs of Welsh businesses, but is able to respond, as quickly as we are able to, to get the money from us and into their hands so that they can go on being successful businesses into the future.

Financial Support for Businesses

Laura Anne Jones AC: 6. Will the First Minister make a statement on Welsh Government financial support for businesses affected by the coronavirus pandemic? OQ55591

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, Llywydd. Our £1.7 billion business support package is the most generous offer of help anywhere in the United Kingdom. As I've said a number of times this afternoon, the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales will provide further details of phase 3 of the economic resilience fund in an oral statement later this afternoon.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, First Minister. I welcome what you've done already and look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say this afternoon. But I've been contacted by the owner of a small haulage firm working in the construction sector who needed financial support as building sites and quarries were closing due to the pandemic. He applied for the first phase of funding from the economic resilience fund shortly after it became available, only to find it'd been withdrawn because of the demand. He then contacted Business Wales, who advised him to seek funding through the self-employed scheme, which he did and received a small payment. When he applied for more funding from the ERF, he was refused because he had claimed from HMRC. My constituent said if he'd known this advice would make him ineligible for further ERF funding, he wouldn't have applied. First Minister, are you aware of more cases like this, and do you agree with me that it's simply not right that this firm is now under threat due to advice received from Business Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm not, I'm afraid, familiar with the details of the specific firm to which the Member refers, but I'm very willing to pursue the points that she has made. If she would like to provide me with details of the firm and the concerns that lie behind the question that she's raised on their behalf this afternoon, I will certainly make sure that they are pursued. And I thank the Member for what she said in opening about welcoming the help that we are able to provide to businesses in Wales more generally.

Bovine TB

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 7. What plans does the Welsh Government have to tackle bovine TB in Wales? OQ55612

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Welsh Government continues to implement our TB eradication programme, addressing all sources of infection in a cattle herd. New herd incidence last year was the lowest for 15 years, with a 16 per cent decline in incidents in the 12 months to June 2020.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, First Minister. Now, in the 12 months to June 2020, 10,823 cattle were slaughtered due to bovine TB. Now, yes, I agree that is a 12 per centdecrease on the previous 12 months, however I was shocked to hear in the Climate Change, Environment and Rural AffairsCommittee the Minister describe this as 'the latest statistics are good.' Well, they are not good if you speak to the farmers across Wales. In fact, they are scandalous, especially as there has been a 56 per cent increase in new herd incidence in the low-risk areas of Wales during the last three years. Whilst 33,512 cattle have been slaughtered, only 16 licences have been issued to capture, mark and eradicate badgers to prevent the spread of this horrendous disease. First Minister, do you consider the latest statistics as being good and what more are you doing to minimise the spread of bovine TB amongst our wildlife? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think we have to encourage people in the sector who work so hard when we see a 24-consecutive-month decrease in new herd incidence, when we see that number being the lowest for 15 years, and in the first quarter of this year, the lowest in any quarter since figures began to be collected. So, it's important we encourage those people in the sector who are doing everything they can, including farmers, of course, to deal with this dreadful disease by demonstrating that the actions they are taking are having a positive impact, and that is exactly what the Minister was trying to do.
TB is a dreadful disease in cattle, and its impact on those farms who've had to see whole herds slaughtered is devastating, on people who've invested so much in those herds over so many years. The only way of tackling it is by tackling it on every front, through accurate testing, through high biosecurity standards, through individual herd action plans and investing in the science as we do at the TB centre of excellence at Aberystwyth. Those are actions that every part of the sector has to take some responsibility for implementing.
The Member said in her supplementary question to me that it was scandalous—the number of new cases that we are seeing in low-TB areas. But she will know that 82 per cent of new cases in those low areas are traced to cattle that are bought and brought into those areas, bringing TB with them. That's why high biosecurity standards, accurate testing and the other measures that I have mentioned all have their part to play, and in that way, we will succeed together in eliminating this dreadful disease from Wales.

Finally, question 8—Darren Miller.

Road Safety

Darren Millar AC: 8. Will the First Minister make a statement on road safety in north Wales? OQ55598

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Darren Millar for that. Road safety remains a key concern for the Welsh Government. The Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales has overseen a review of safety issues on trunk roads, and at the other end of the spectrum, the Deputy Minister in that department is taking forward initiatives such as the roll-out of 20 mph speed limits, which, by themselves, will have an impact on road safety in north Wales and in other parts of Wales too.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. One of the consequences of the increase in people working from home is that we've seen a significant reduction in traffic on many of our roads, and, unfortunately, because there's less traffic, that has often led to an increase in speeding, and that is absolutely true on the A494 trunk road between Ruthin and Mold, much of which is in my constituency. We've had a number of serious accidents, unfortunately, some in which individuals have lost their lives, in the Llanbedr area, and also in the Llanberis area there's been a significant increase in speeding.
Can I urge you, First Minister, to work with the Minister responsible for transport to look at what additional measures might be taken on this particular stretch of road, including whether it may be viable to introduce average speed cameras, which seem to have been so effective in killing speed, rather than people, on dangerous roads elsewhere in the country?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank Darren Millar for those very important follow-up questions? Fatalities in north Wales in September have been very distressing, and I know that he's been directly concerned with some of them. I wanted to thank him for the letter that he sent in to the Minister at the end of August, and I know he's received a reply from Ken Skates specifically regarding road safety on the A494, measures that the Welsh Government has already taken and which need to be monitored now for their effectiveness, but to give him an assurance, as the letter did, that, if those measures are not effective, then other measures will be considered of the sort that he has set out, so that we can do everything we can together to make sure that lives, and young lives, are not lost on roads in north Wales.

I thank the First Minister.

Statement by the Llywydd

And before we move on, just to say that I've been asked for a point of order at this point by Members, but I'll address the issue in this way. Firstly, all Members—Ministers and other Members—are fully participating equally in this Senedd, whether they do so virtually or here physically in the Chamber. And, secondly, to reassure Members here present this afternoon that you do so in line with regulations and guidance. Now, for the rest of this lengthy afternoon and evening of work that we have in front of us, let's focus on the content of what we have to say rather than where we may be saying it from.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement. I call on the Trefnydd to make the business statement. And I'll also draw attention to the fact that this is scheduled by the Government for 15 minutes, but I have very many speakers, of all parties, wishing to contribute to this afternoon, so I put you on warning that you may not be able to be called, due to the 15-minute allocation of time for this item.

The Trefnydd to make the statement. Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are several changes to today's agenda. The debate on the four Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 will take place immediately after this business statement and announcement. The debate on the Fisheries Bill legislative consent motion has been postponed until next week. And finally, the statement on maternity services and governance improvements at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board has been postponed until 13 October in order to accommodate a statement to update the Senedd on the local coronavirus restrictions. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Suzy Davies AC: Perhaps I could ask for, Trefnydd, a short statement perhaps from the economy Minister regarding the Ford closure, which, sadly, happened—and we were all waiting for it—last week, just to update us on the final findings of the taskforce there that was set up in order to assist the people working there to find jobs. When we're talking about £100,000 being put aside for this, it seems like pretty small potatoes compared to what we've heard of today. So, that would be very, very welcome.
I think I would also ask for a statement from the environment Minister, an update on her views on discrete support for zoos. I appreciate that we'll be hearing more about the economic resilience fund later on, but the specific demands of visitor attractions that are responsible for animal welfare need specific and close attention, because, obviously, whether an attraction is open or closed doesn't matter, they need the same staff and the same number of people—the same money, sorry—to support levels of animal welfare there.
And then, finally, could we have a letter or a statement, from the environment Minister again, regarding the management of the Kenfig nature reserve in my region? It's a globally important site. No-one has really been in charge of it since the local authority chose not to renew its lease last December, and, while Natural Resources Wales has had some activity there, the discussions between them and the site owners have broken down. Considering that this is an area of such—well, actually—global importance, not just national importance, I would hope that the Minister, with her overarching responsibilities for the environment, would have something important to say on this. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you very much to Suzy Davies for raising those three important issues, and I will ask the Minister for economy and transport to write to colleagues with an update on the situation following the sad closure of Ford in Bridgend. I know that the taskforce has worked tirelessly to bring all of the partners together to intensify the efforts to support those who have been affected and to attract new investment and to generate local employment opportunities. And, of course, there's the legacy fund now, which is available for the community to access as well, but I think it would be helpful for the Minister to pull together all of those aspects of the work in order to provide interested colleagues with an update on that, so I'll ensure that that happens.
With regard to the support for zoos, as Suzy says, there is the opportunity, later on today, to potentially seek to raise that with the Minister for economy and transport. But, again, perhaps I would invite Suzy to write to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs with her specific concern about animal welfare as a result of the coronavirus.
And, again, on the issue of the Kenfig nature reserve, I will ask the Minister to write to you with an update to respond to the concerns that you've just raised.

Leanne Wood AC: Many people have been left high and dry by their insurance companies after many places in the south were put into lockdown and people were unable to go on holidays. Now, some policies may have had small print preventing a payout due to COVID-19, but I know this isn't the case with all refusals. In one instance, one company told a customer that advice from the Welsh Government is irrelevant and they only accept advice not to travel from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Now, I hope your Government will agree with me that Welsh-imposed restrictions shouldn't be considered any less than Westminster-imposed ones. Will the Government, therefore, make a clear statement on the legal status of these restrictions in Wales and how they should impact on insurance policies?I know that representations have been made to the Association of British Insurers, but it wasn't clear from the First Minister's answer whether a legal statement, which I've asked for, has been made, and they don't appear to have made any guarantees with regard to refunds for all, and they absolutely should. It would be useful for us to have a statement to hear what else the Government can do to ensure that those people who are refused their holiday refunds get them.

Rebecca Evans AC: Leanne Wood's right: it's absolutely so disappointing for people who have had their holidays cancelled as a result of the coronavirus and the regulations and restrictions that have had to be put in place. As the First Minister said, we have been taking this up directly with the insurance industry and we had a relatively positive response, I think, back from the industry body. But, as the First Minister and I think Leanne Wood has, also, said, those warm words now need to be translated into action and into payouts for the affected policyholders. But if there is a further update on that, I'll be sure to share that with Leanne.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I ask for two oral Government statements—the first one on the provision of free school meals? We've had a number of written statements on the provision, of expanding it, and I'm very pleased with those, but could we have a full statement on exactly where we are? It's well known that my view is that free school meals should go through every holiday and, when children are not in school, they should still get free school meals, because they still have to eat when they're not in school. So, could we have a statement on that, and, second, and this is fairly apt at this time of the year, a statement on the use of fireworks throughout the year, especially this time of the year, and what the Welsh Government or local authorities can do to limit the use of fireworks? Because I can tell you, in Swansea East, not a month goes by without a firework display going off somewhere.

Rebecca Evans AC: Mike Hedges is absolutely right on that second point. I think I also see those firework displays across Swansea on a regular basis as well. We do recognise that the cancellation of so many organised events this year does risk an increase inthe use of fireworks in people's gardens. We know that the powers to make those regulations lie under the Fireworks Act 2003, and that rests with UK Government Ministers, which is why we're seeking to work really closely with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy in Westminster, which is responsible for fireworks regulations. We're urging a really strong UK Government response to the recommendations that have been made by the recent House of Commons Petitions Committee report on fireworks, and officials in Welsh Government are also currently working with BEIS on public messaging for the upcoming bonfire season, and also with Global Action Plan to raise awareness of the air-quality impacts of bonfires and fireworks on Clean Air Day as well.
On the first issue, I know Mike Hedges absolutely recognises the vital role that free school meals play in terms of ensuring that children get that healthy meal and don't go hungry during unprecedented times, and particularly so over the course of the summer holidays. Since then, we've made available a further £1.28 million to help local authorities meet the additional costs of free school meals during the first two weeks of the autumn term, when some of the schools are adapting and having that more flexible approach to learning. Again, since then we've agreed funding of at least £420,000 so that those who are in receipt of free school meals will also continue to receive that provision if they aren't able to attend school for any reason, such as having to self-isolate and so on. So, we're trying to make sure that we think of all the different scenarios that children might be affected by.

Nick Ramsay AC: Can I firstly concur with the comments made by Mike Hedges regarding the need for greater regulation of fireworks? Two issues if I may, Llywydd: firstly, Trefnydd, I've been contacted by a number of constituents who are very concerned about the limited number of train carriages being used to get young people to and from Hereford Sixth Form College from Abergavenny station. Despite each child having paid for their season ticket in advance, I'm told that Transport for Wales have laid on buses that are totally inadequate, with no social distancing in operation whatsoever. I wonder if we could have a statement from the Minister for transport outlining any discussions he might have had with Transport for Wales and an explanation as to why young people do seem to be treated differently from adults in this regard.
Secondly and finally, Llywydd, the Musicians' Union have been very active on Twitter recently, and they've been raising some very extremely concerning statistics regarding the plight of musicians through the pandemic. Thirty-six per cent of musicians have no work at all; 87 per cent will be earning less than £20,000 per year. I know that Stephen Crabb has raised this issue in Parliament. Given that the arts are largely devolved to Wales, I wonder if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government as to what support is being given to the arts during this difficult time, particularly music. We know the importance that music has not just for musicians, but for all of us in terms of our mental health. I'm sure we want to listen to music, particularly at the moment, through the pandemic, and I think you'd agree with me that music deserves better.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Nick Ramsay for raising those issues. I will, if he doesn't mind, invite him to write to the Minister for economy and transport on that first issue, which relates to the number of train carriages to carry young people from Abergavenny station. I think that would be the quickest way to progress that particular query.
And then I absolutely recognise the impact that the coronavirus has had on those people who are working within the music industry, both in terms of organisations and choirs and so on, but also freelancers who earn their living through the music industry as well. That's why we're continuing to work alongside our music stakeholder group to understand the concerns and the impact of the coronavirus, and have also announced funding through the £53 million cultural recovery fund. So, I would advise organisations and individuals to explore whether some financial support might be available to them through that particular fund.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Today, I rode on an e-scooter, which is permitted to go on the roads under new regulations, and I wondered if we could have a statement on how we can extend that as another mode of transport to complement the reduction in public transport and, obviously, the necessary reduction in the use of private vehicles.
I'd also like a second statement from Lesley Griffiths, as the Minister responsible for food, as to what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the impact of a possible 'no deal' on the threat to food supplies that we currently import from Europe. And I wondered if that could be made to the Senedd.

Rebecca Evans AC: I thank Jenny Rathbone for raising both of those issues. I've also had the pleasure of trying out an e-scooterand it was a fantastically fun way to get around. I know that this is something that is being explored in various parts of Welsh Government. I understand that some of the issues that are proving more tricky lie around the licensing and regulation in relation to e-scooters, because those items sit with the UK Government. But I know it's something that the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport has been taking an interest in, and I will ask him to provide you with an update on his thinking in that regard.
And then, again, I will make sure that the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs is aware of your request for that statement on the specific issue of the impact of a potential 'no deal' Brexit on food supplies for us here in Wales.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Chief Whip in her role as Minister with responsibility for equalities, to update the Senedd about the position of the asylum seekers arriving in Penally. I understand that there were further disturbances, albeit, thank goodness, of a minor nature, yesterday. The Government will be aware of a very strongly worded letter that was written by the local health board, the county council, supported by local representatives and faith and civic society leaders in those communities, a copy of which has been received, raising grave concerns about the decision from the Home Office, about the ability particularly to provide the appropriate support, appropriate religious support, for example, and support through the medium of the appropriate languages, and also raising some specific concerns about the conditions of the buildings in which these men are going to be housed. Obviously, we know that the Home Office has not been helpful so far in this regard, but I would submit, Trefnydd, that if the Home Office remains obdurate, it becomes our responsibility as the citizens of Wales to ensure that those men being settled at Penally are supported and protected. So, I'd be grateful for a statement from the Chief Whip as to how the Welsh Government can work with the health board, the local authority and other local agencies to try and ensure that if those young men cannot be resettled in more appropriate centres, they are given the support that they need.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very happy to speak to the Minister with responsibility for equalities on this point. I think, if I recall correctly, there's a question on this issue to the Minister for Health and Social Services tomorrow, so that might be an early opportunity to explore some of those issues further. But, as I say, I'll ensure that I do have that conversation with the Deputy Minister with responsibility for equalities.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'm looking for a statement on building safety, Minister. An EWS1 is a certificate checking the safety of the outside walls of a building—cladding, for example. Now, a resident of Marseille House in Century Wharf, Cardiff, has provided me with evidence that the EWS1 certificate for the building was signed off by an employee of the Mansion Group, with their headquarters in Cheadle, Cheshire, and the person who supposedly signed off this safety certificate has stated in writing that they did not carry out the inspection, they did not sign the form, they had no connection to Specialist Facade Inspections Ltd, based in Newbridge, and the signature on the letter is not the signature of the senior acquisitions surveyor. Now, in this, Specialist Facade Inspections Ltd say they are the victim as well, but the bottom line is that we have a safety certificate and I don't know who it's been signed by. And this really is a pressing matter now. So, I'd like a statement as to when the housing Minister will get a grip on matters, set up a taskforce and sort this out. Diolch.

Rebecca Evans AC: Well the situation that Neil McEvoy describes is clearly serious, so I would invite him to send that level of detail to the Minister for housing with regard to the concerns about the documents, how they have been processed and the tests that were undertaken in order to inform the signing of those documents. Clearly, that's not something that we can deal with in the business statement this afternoon. The Minister did provide a response to a debate on building safety just a couple of weeks ago, but I know that she's keen to progress this issue. So, if you do send that detailed information, I'm sure that she'll be able to advise on what might be the best course of action for the residents concerned.

Finally, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I'd like to have a statement on prisons in Wales, to outline that prisoners do have a right to speak and use the Welsh language without facing either discrimination or abuse within the prison estate. That's a matter that has been brought up recently. But also, on prisoners leaving the secure estate, it's always an issue when homelessness is a major issue facing people, particularly during the winter months, but in the middle of a pandemic all those issues are much, much worse. We've seen a report recently from the Wales Governance Centre that outlined the extent of the crisis facing people leaving the secure estate in Wales, and it would be useful, I think, if we all had an update on the devolution of the prison service to ensure that we are able to provide joined-up services in a way that the Thomas commission recommended.
I would also like to have an opportunity to debate the report that was reported on the BBC this morning about the next elections for the Senedd in May. This is a matter for us as Members to determine. I do not believe that our election should be determined by deals behind closed doors or by small groups of individuals. It is a matter upon which we should all be able to vote on, debate and discuss openly. I believe—and I agree with the First Minister—that there must be an election in May and that the relevant authorities, be they Government or the Senedd Commission, must put in place the resources and the legal basis upon which that election may be conducted if circumstances remain very difficult, whether that's an all-postal ballot or another means of ensuring that the ballot is secure. But the ballot must take place, there must be an election in May, and we must have the opportunity to vote on that and to ensure that the people of Wales are not deprived of their democracy.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you to Alun Davies for raising both of those issues. I'll ensure that the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip is aware of that concern for a debate on prisons in Wales, but I know that the Minister for Housing and Local Government will also be keen to write to you with an update on the work that's been going on during the coronavirus epidemic to ensure that nobody is leaving prison onto the street, and what onward support we can offer to people once they have been put into suitable housing during this crisis, but to ensure then that they retain a roof over their heads as we start to move into the reconstruction phase.
I also completely agree that there must be an election in May, and we're absolutely planning and working on that basis. I haven't yet seen a copy of the report that has been referred to in the press, but it is, as the First Minister set out earlier, absolutely the basis on which we are planning—that there will be and must be an election in May.

I thank the Trefnydd.
In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the four motions under items 3, 4, 5 and 6, on the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Wales) 2020, will be grouped for debate but with votes taken separately. Does any Member object to the grouping for debate? I see no objection to that.

3., 4., 5. & 6. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No 10) (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Regulations 2020, The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020, The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) (Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport etc.) Regulations 2020 and The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020

And therefore I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move the motions—Vaughan Gething.

Motion NDM7396 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 17 September 2020.

Motion NDM7383 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 8 September 2020.

Motion NDM7399 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) (Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport etc.) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 22 September 2020.

Motion NDM7395 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 18 September 2020.

Motions moved.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I formally move the four sets of motions containing regulations before us today, and ask Members to support them. These regulations were again introduced under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 through our emergency procedures to support our ongoing approach to tackling coronavirus. Members will know that the Welsh Government takes a careful and evidence-based approach to our strategy for dealing with coronavirus, including through the formal requirement to review the need for any of these requirements and regulations, and their proportionality, every 21 days.

Vaughan Gething AC: The regulations we’re debating today were introduced over a period from 7 September to 17 September. They demonstrate the swift but necessary actions the Welsh Government has had to take to respond to the recent rise in the number of cases in certain parts of Wales. To ensure that we're equipped to do so, we’ve increased the powers of local authorities and implemented local restrictions in Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport. Those are the sets of regulations before us. Sadly, as I say, we’ve seen a sharp rise in the number of positive infection rates. Members will also be aware that we have now introduced further local restrictions across Llanelli, Cardiff and Swansea, which came into force at 6 p.m. on 26 September in relation Llanelli, and at 6 p.m. on 27 September in Cardiff and Swansea. Amendments to the principal regulations that apply to Cardiff, Swansea and Llanelli will be debated in the Senedd on 6 October. As we’ve set out in our coronavirus control plan, we have an approach of monitoring cases, and attempt to control localised outbreaks. The restrictions are based on the principles of caution, proportionality and subsidiarity. These measures are kept under constant review. I'll address each of the regulations being considered today in turn.
As a consequence of data demonstrating a rapid increase in COVID-19 cases in Caerphilly, to control the spread of the virus and protect public health across that local authority area, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020 were laid on 8 September. I'll refer to each of the subsequent regulations by the number of their amendment to the main regulations. These regulations prohibit households within the area from being part of an extended household or bubble with other households. Where a household from another area has formed an extended household with a household within the area, the household within that area is no longer treated as forming part of that extended household bubble. It prohibits residents of the area from leaving or to remain away from the area without a reasonable excuse. It requires residents of the area to return to work from home unless it is not reasonably practical for them to do so. And it prohibits people from outside of the area entering that area without a reasonable excuse. It requires people present in the area to wear a face covering when in an open premises, subject to the exemptions and exceptions, and it requires the restrictions and requirements introduced by the No. 8 amendment regulations to be reviewed on or before 24 September, and, if they are subsequently re-introduced, at least once every seven days thereafter. Finally, all premises selling alcohol in the local authority area have had additional restrictions applied, so they have to stop all sales of alcohol at 10 p.m. This was originally intended to be 11 p.m., however, based on advice to aid the prevention of the spread of the virus, an all-Wales restriction of 10 p.m. on the sale of alcohol has since been implemented for all licensedoutlets.
On 17 September, the No. 10 amendment regulations were introduced to impose the same restrictions as I've described in Rhondda Cynon Taf as were introduced in the borough of Caerphilly. The evidence from recent weeks is clear: where we have seen increases in transmission rates, these have primarily resulted from people not observing social distancing and ignoring the previous restrictions. There has been a steep rise in the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases within RCT. On 22 September, the No. 11 amendment regulations introduced the same restrictions in Blaenau Gwent, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport local authority areas for the same reasons.
Finally, the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020 provide local authorities with powers to intervene as outbreaks occur so they can take action to close off land or individual local premises and stop local events. These came into force on 14 September. Broadly equivalent powers have been given to local authorities in England and Scotland by regulations made by the UK and Scottish Governments respectively. Under these regulations, a local authority may issue a premises direction, an event direction or a public place direction. These powers provide a means for local authorities to take effective preventative action where circumstances require it. Our current intention is that the principal regulations will expire at the end of the day on 8 January 2021. That is six months from when they were made and introduced. The regulations are therefore intended to expire on the same day.
Llywydd, as we all know, we all have a part to play in keeping Wales safe. These regulations are necessary to our continued efforts to tackle this pandemic and I ask the Senedd to support them.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. I do regret that it's not on the floor of the Senedd here, but I fully respect that whether you're virtual or in the Senedd it is a part of the proceedings of this institution. But I am concerned greatly by some of the assertions—in fact, an assertion from you today to me on Twitter—that by your actions you are keeping Wales safe, and I am not by attending these parliamentary proceedings. I'd like to seek clarification from you whether the regulations you have put before us today or the regulations that will come next week that cover Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan, if you do attend a parliamentary sitting you would be breaking those regulations, because you've insinuated that in a tweet to me. So, can you point me where in these regulations I will be breaking those regulations by attending this Parliament, or indeed, Members of Parliament, such as Kevin Brennan, attending Westminster today, yet his parliamentary colleague from this institution is over in Cathays Park? I think that's an important question that you must answer if you're putting that assertion out there that parliamentarians are breaking the restrictions and not keeping Wales safe. We are all signed up to making sure that Wales is safe and we want to see the end of this virus. That is why today the Welsh Conservatives for the first time in tabling regulations will abstain on these regulations for the way that you're dealing with these matters in such a cavalier way.
I'd also like to seek clarification from you as well: do these regulations start the lockdown process on a more regional footing rather than a localised footing? Is it the case that there is now a lockdown time for pubs and social venues to shut, which is 10:20 rather than 10 o'clock? Because I notice in press comments that you put out last week that, actually, you would expect all social events to close by 10:20 rather than 10 o'clock. Is that included in the regulations or is that merely just your aspiration?
Again, I would ask to seek clarification as to which political leaders, political elected representatives are briefed on these regulations before they are made public, because again, on social media over the weekend, I did notice that some elected Members from other institutions were indicating that they'd spoken to the health Minister prior to these regulations coming out and being publicly available. That is unacceptable. Surely there is equality amongst elected Members, and Members, if they are briefed, should be briefed on an equal basis. I'd be grateful to understand how you go about briefing Members of an elected institution that isn't unanimously included in those briefings if they represent that particular area and play an important role in deciphering that information out to the communities they represent.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We are again turning to a part of our parliamentary business that is truly significant—perhaps the most important part of our proceedings at this time. It relates to this Senedd discussing, and as I would expect, approving regulations that place very severe restrictions on the freedoms of individuals and communities. In terms of the regulations under items 3, 4 and 5, which extend COVID restrictions to more counties, we will be supporting these, but—and I do make this point once again—we do believe that these restrictions should be as localised as possible and that we should operate on a hyperlocal level wherever possible.
I would also encourage very careful consideration of different elements of the restrictions. We are looking at them in their entirety, of course, and we support the general principles, but we do need to look in great detail at various elements of the restrictions. We may need to tighten further what happens when pubs and restaurants close at 10 o'clock and the need to disperse people without them going to each other's homes and so on and so forth, but on the other hand, we do need to give very careful consideration to the impact on the well-being and mental health of people and to consider, for example, steps to allow more contact for people who are likely to suffer from loneliness and isolation. It's important to bear in mind that these restrictions have a great impact on people within our communities.
It's also important to note that we are dealing with a means of legislating that is less than satisfactory. I emphasise the need to bring these regulations before us as soon as possible, and although there has been less delay in terms of the implementation of the regulations and their debate than there was last week, we are still talking about regulations that came into force as early as 7 September, and we need to tighten that timetable.
And with agenda item 6, although it's technical in nature, correcting a previous error, I do note that the legislation committee have written to the Welsh Government to request clarity on why these regulations needed to come into force before they were laid before this Senedd, and there are very clear requirements on the process that should be followed in the Statutory Instruments Act 1946. I note here my thanks to that committee for their work.
And finally, whilst what we have here in amendments 10, 8 and 11 are new restrictions that require residents in the affected areas to play their part in trying to eradicate the virus, let's bear in mind that the Government has to play its part too, particularly when it comes to testing. Get the testing sorted; ensure that tests are available when people need them; that results are returned swiftly, so that we can start the tracing process, and then, hopefully, we will not need so many of these regulations.

I have twice forgotten to call the Chair of the legislation committee, so on the third time of asking, I call on the Chair of the legislation committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I had noted, and was waiting in anticipation. This is a report of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in respect of the four sets of regulations, so it's a composite report. Members will know that the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) Regulations 2020 are the principal regulations on coronavirus in Wales, and the Senedd approved those regulations on 5 August 2020. We reported on the No. 8 amending regulations on 21 September, and yesterday we reported on the No. 10 and No. 11 amending regulations, together with the regulations related to local authority functions. We acknowledge that whilst we are debating these regulations today, the Welsh Government has also made further amending regulations, which, as I said last week, demonstrates the fast-moving nature of the Government's action on these matters.
The No. 8, No. 10 and No. 11 regulations all concern restrictions placed on specific communities. The No. 8 amending regulations came into force on 8 September and, as the Members will know, they introduce restrictions in respect of Caerphilly county borough as a local health protection area. Briefly, the restrictions cover extended households, prohibitions on movement away from and into the area, and requiring residents to work from home unless it is not reasonably practical for them to do so. Subsequently, the No. 10 amending regulations apply similar restrictions to Rhondda Cynon TafCounty Borough Council from 17 September, with an additional restriction requiring that all premises licensed to sell alcohol must not open before 6 a.m. and must close at or before 11 p.m. each day. And then from 22 September, the No. 11 amending regulations applied those same restrictions to the local authorities of Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport, and the No. 11 regulations also applied the restrictions on opening hours of licensed premises to Caerphilly county borough.
Now, in our reports, we drew attention to the lack of public consultations or regulatory impact assessments carried out in relation to the amending regulations, and also considered the Welsh Government's assessment of the extent to which any interference with human rights is justified and proportionate in pursuit of the legitimate aim of protecting public health. I therefore draw Members' attention to our reports on the amending regulations.
In our meeting yesterday, we also discussed the meaning of what constitutes 'a reasonable excuse' for the purpose of the regulations. This is an issue that many constituents who want to do the right thing have raised with us all. We believe that the Welsh Government should publish more detailed guidance on this matter and we will be writing to the Minister specifically on this point.
I now return to the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020. These are regulations that came into force on 18 September. They provide local authorities across Wales with powers by issuing directions to relevant people to close individual premises or impose specific restrictions or requirements on them. They prohibit certain events, or types of event, from taking place, or impose restrictions or requirements on them, and also can restrict access to or close public outdoor events.
Our report makes four merits points, and I wish to highlight three of them briefly. Regulation 9 requires a local authority to have regard to any guidance issued by the Welsh Ministers about the regulations. Our third reporting point notes that the guidance in relation to these regulations does not appear to be published on the Welsh Government website, or at least it is not easily identifiable. We think that making the guidance available or more easily accessible would be a helpful aid for local authorities and members of the public wishing to understand the impact of these regulations. The regulations also require a local authority to take reasonable steps to give prior notice of a premises direction, event direction or public place direction. Our fourth reporting point identifies the difference in treatment between the types of notice in relation to matters set out in regulations 11 and 12, however, it is not clear why this distinction is necessary.
And then, finally, as we are aware, the Welsh Government has now written to the Llywydd, as required by the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, explaining why it was necessary for the regulations to come into force before they were laid before the Senedd. I'd welcome the observations of the health Minister on these points that I've raised on the local authority functions regulations. Thank you, Llywydd.

Mark Reckless AC: I thank the Minister for his statement. I share Andrew R.T.'s disappointment that he's decided to make it from his office in Cathays Park; he's gone rather further from home to get there than he would to come to the Senedd. I do, though, appreciate we're slightly less delayed doing these regulations than some of the others that we've done before. It's our intention to vote against these regulations for the same reasons I gave last week. The Minister and Members will probably be pleased to hear that I'm not planning to repeat those reasons. May I, though, welcome Andrew R.T. Davies stating that the Conservatives will at least abstain on this set? He says it's the first time they've abstained—I think actually they did abstain on at least one set before. There were a lot of complaints from them about the cruel rule of 5 miles, even though I think they voted for the stay local law under which it was promulgated, but I think another set did attract their abstention at the time, so it's good to see they're now looking at these with a somewhat more critical eye than previously.
Could I ask the Minister—? As you know, Minister, I consider these regulations to be disproportionate and counter-productive, and I'd question how evidence based they are. I wonder, though, could I focus particularly on the three councils that have come in most recently? You set out some principles just now for the regulations we are looking at, and we're talking, at least in the case of Caerphilly, of a rapid increase in coronavirus regulations to justify the regs. The three latest councils that have come in though, it seems almost like you're filling in the gaps within the region. If you look at those councils individually, I just wonder if it can be justified on an individual basis. It strikes me they're even less justified than the other regulations. Take, for example, Torfaen, where one constituent has pointed out to me, at least on the basis of data that's publicly available to them as of yesterday, that we were seeing infections of no more than around seven a day in Torfaen, and generally it seemed you had been looking at a threshold of at least 20 per 100,000 before you considered restrictions, and that's the assessment you were putting on abroad as well. Why have you imposed such stringent regulations and lockdown requirements in Torfaen when the incidence of coronavirus seemed to be significantly below that?

Neil Hamilton AC: The Minister's, once again, taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut, in my view. Is it not inevitable when you relax restrictions that the risk of increasing infection is bound to occur? And, obviously, as we move towards winter, there's a higher risk anyway of any respiratory infection being contracted by individuals. It's overwhelmingly the case that where deaths from COVID are concerned they occur amongst older people. Forty per cent of the deaths are people over 85; 30 per cent in the age group of 75 to 84; and a further 15 per cent in my age group, 65 to 74; whereas the overwhelming bulk of the infections takes place in younger people, and they're not anything like as at risk. In fact, it's calculated that somebody over the age of 85 is 1,000 times more likely to die of COVID than somebody who's under 65.
So, these regulations are not proportionate, in my opinion, as the Minister says. What he has done—I wonder whether he'd agree with this—in fact is to turn south Wales in particular into a kind of series of gulags that constrain people within the boundaries of the local authority in which they live. They're not likely to be effective unless they're continued indefinitely, and we will carry on having lockdown after lockdown after lockdown if we don't accept the inevitable: that until a vaccine is effective and widely distributed, the risk of infection must continue.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'll be voting against the local lockdowns today. I don't think it is right to stop Welsh people from moving around our own country when the border, the ports and the airports are open, and open without testing as well. So, why should people from across the border with much higher rates of infection be allowed into Wales to travel freely, whilst Welsh people here, in some circumstances, cannot even travel to the next town? I'm not going to vote to lock down my own city and country but leave it open to everybody else to come here as they like.
We've already had talk of mandatory vaccines, curfews and even use of the army, and I'm not sure what science says that we need to close entertainment establishments at 10 p.m. Where is the science behind that? Why are DJs not allowed to play? We should be treating people like adults, because some businesses have tried really, really hard and have spent a lot of money on precautions. I, myself, went to Mocka Lounge in Cardiff and was extremely impressed by the precautions taken—very well organised. I know there are other places like that as well.
In these regulations there are so many contradictions. We have segregation in school, yet on the bus everybody mixes. There's little education about masks, in terms of how often you should change your masks. I see people walking around in visors, thinking that they're protecting themselves from breathing things in and protecting others from what they breathe out, but visors don't do that. Where are the bins for masks to be deposited and got rid of safely? Where are they? You see masks all over the floor.
The approach is chaotic and reactionary. I said in this Senedd in March that you cannot fight a pandemic without testing. The World Health Organization has told us from the very beginning, 'Test, test, test'; otherwise, it's like trying to put out a fire blindfolded. What we should be doing is thinking about processes and thinking about how we can protect the elderly and the vulnerable from picking up this virus. How do we shield people?
In essence, what we really must do is test. How many of us have been ill these last few months and don't know whether we've had coronavirus because the antibody test has not been available? How many of us have some kind of immunity to the virus but we don't know it? We're not going to get any further forward until we identify and isolate this virus. In the meantime, these lockdowns—there'll be another one and another one and another one. It will be unending, so I will not support the proposals today, and this is the first time.

The Minister for health to reply to the debate—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I thank the Members for their contribution to the debate. I'll try to deal with each one in turn briefly. Starting with Andrew R.T. Davies, I obviously regret the approach that he and his group are taking. From what they say, they're abstaining not because they disagree with the measures or that the measures that are being put in place are somehow not appropriate, but it's a question about process rather than outcome in terms of how we keep people in Wales safe.
I can absolutely say, hand on heart, to any and every person in Wales that there is nothing cavalier in our approach. It takes a huge amount of time, energy and effort from Ministers, our officials and colleagues in local authorities, who also have incredibly difficult choices to make right across the political spectrum. We've worked very hard with them, with the police and, indeed, with our health service in coming up with and trying to understand the pattern of infection that is taking place. Rather than searching for conflict, I think that elected representatives should be searching for an answer to how we try to suppress the virus and to protect Wales from harm.
It's also worth confirming, of course, that we're taking an approach to making these regulations that takes account of our processes here in Wales. The main affirmative procedure requires these regulations to have the support of the Senedd or they fall. Of course, in England, the equivalent regulations are introduced by ministerial decrees without Parliament needing to vote on them. I think our process is absolutely democratically more superior and provides deliberate and regular scrutiny, as it is meant to do.
The First Minister confirmed the issues about travel and the travel restrictions. I am required to be here because it's not reasonably practical for me to do all of my job without a range of other officials here as well. On other days, I will be undertaking work from home, when it's reasonably practical for me to do so. In terms of briefing Members, if there's been an oversight in the Member not being contacted, then that is definitely something for us to look at. That is not a deliberate attempt. We make, again, great efforts to speak to elected representatives across the political spectrum when we are having to make these choices as well.And on the point about closing time for the hospitality trade, it is in the regulations; it's 10 o'clock for ending of the sale of alcohol, and 10.20 p.m. in the evening when those premises must close.
I take on board Rhun ap Iorwerth's points about looking for a local area within a council area where possible. That's exactly what we have done within Carmarthenshire, because Llanelli is a distinct area. If Llanelli was not part of Carmarthenshire we would not be contemplating taking action in Carmarthenshire looking at the rest of the rates that exist. We consider this every time we take forward the potential to introduce these regulations—whether it is possible to take an approach that is less than the whole local authority. On each occasion up to that point we found it wasn't really possible in line with the evidence of the spread of the virus across that local authority area.
These are local restrictions for the county, they're not regional ones. So, it doesn't mean you can travel anywhere you like across the wider south Wales area where the restrictions are in place. It's within the individual local authority in which you live—again, on the point about a reasonable excuse that I'll come to later for travel. We do have a regular conversations with local authorities about what we are doing and why, and that'll continue to be the case. It's a deliberately pluralistic approach that we take. We don't simply decide to impose these measures and then inform local authorities of our decisions afterwards. The Member will know, I'm sure, from his own contacts, that that's been a very deliberate and careful approach that we've taken.
On the point about testing that the Member made, we are now undertaking 10,000 to 11,000 tests a day across Wales. Now, 3,000 to 4,000 of those tests are Public Health Wales lab tests and we expect more of those to be introduced over the coming days as we both increase not just the number and access to places for testing to take place, but the volume of testing available as well. The Member will see, as we roll out not just more of those tests but the consistent lanes in drive-through centres I've previously announced, that also we're going to have a generation of walk-in centres, then we're also looking to have Public Health Wales tests available at those as well, to make sure we can not just plug the gaps being created by the lighthouse lab programme challenges at present, but we'll have extra capacity in any event within the field. We're also using our mobile testing resources as infection rates climb in different parts of Wales.
In terms of Mick Antoniw's points, on the point about reasonable excuse to travel, I think we've done all that we can in terms of trying to set out the guidance that is available about what is and isn't a reasonable excuse for travel. The challenge is that, if we provide even more extensive and detailed guidance, we'll end up with a thicket of rules, and it's a challenge for us. We will consider the points made in the reports from the legislation and justice committee, but we do need to think about when we get to a point when it's still practical for people to understand—and some of this does rely on the judgment of individual members of the public about what really is a reasonable excuse, to think about how they comply with the regulations rather than looking for a way to avoid them. And on your point about the local authority regulations and the guidance, we'll look at the guidance to see if that's there; I take on board your point and I'll check to see what is publicly available and where it is. I also take on board the point about the clerical error in the laying of the regulations—that was a one-off, and we have written to the Llywydd, I believe, to confirm that that is the case. We'll make sure that the committee are aware of that in the formal response to your report.
Turning to Mark Reckless, he is being consistent—I don't agree with him and he doesn't agree with me, but he's consistent in the position he's taken throughout the course of these regulations. In terms of the rising tide, to give you the example of Torfaen that he particularly focused upon, seven days ago, the rate per 100,000 in Torfaen was 22.3, today it's 47.9; you can see a significant increase in levels of the virus. And because we understand that the headline rates are likely to be an underestimation of the real position—and that's partly because of the lag in lighthouse lab testing—we can plot from that the level of people who may not be coming forward for testing.
The other point I think it's important to remember to look at is the positivity rates—the numbers of people in every 100 who are testing positive—and again, the rate in Torfaen has increased over the last seven and 14 days. It really does, I think, justify—and it's supported by all local stakeholders—the measures that have been taken. Admittedly, we'll debate and the Senedd will be asked to vote on those regulations for the Vale of Glamorgan, Torfaen and Neath Port Talbot in the future.
I think Neil Hamilton is, again, being consistent with his deliberately offensive reference in saying that south Wales had been turned into a gulag. I think people who have families who have suffered in actual gulags will find that deeply unpleasant and in no way an appropriate reference to make in the democratic choices that we are making here today, and in the threat that we face in a public health pandemic.
In terms of Neil McEvoy's comments, the challenge is broadly driven by indoor contact in hospitality venues, but in particular within the home. I think there was an attempt to say that we should not lock down areas and we should not introduce local restrictions within Wales, because others are not taking different action in other parts of the UK. I think doing nothing because others are not acting is to surrender our ability to make choices in Wales to protect and keep Wales safe. And I don't think that that's an appropriate course of action at all. I think there was also a misunderstanding of the point and the purpose of testing. I think that it may be worth his while reading the specific advice that we had from our technical advisory group. I think that may help with some of the comments he made. He then also said that it was important to isolate the virus, whilst demanding that we had no travel restrictions in place at all. I think that's entirely a real misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve and the point and purpose of these regulations. So, a rather disappointing and misplaced contribution.
The regulations that have been debated today reflect the careful consideration of how we balance individual freedom with managing the continuing threat of coronavirus and it weighs very heavily on the minds of Ministers who are making these choices that we are making really significant choices about people's individual freedoms, whilst, of course, trying to do the right thing to keep Wales safe. Our approach has been guided as always be the advice of the chief medical officer and his department, our scientific advisers, the technical advisory group and the study they do of evidence from within Wales, across the UK and beyond.
As I said, I believe that we're taking specific and proportionate action in response to the rising tide of coronavirus cases within specific local authority areas. But, to finish, each one of us has a continuing responsibility to make choices and to follow the measures to keep us, our families, our loved ones and our communities safe. That means to keep a distance from each other when we're out and about, to wash our hands often and to work from home wherever possible. We need to wear a face covering in indoor public places, we need to stay at home if we've got symptoms and while we're waiting for a test result, and we need to follow any local restrictions that are in place. I ask Members of the Senedd to support these regulations and do our part, as elected Members, to help keep Wales safe.

Thank you, Minister. The proposal is to agree the motion under item 3. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, the vote is deferred until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 4. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will again defer voting under item 4 until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 5. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 6. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting on item 6until voting time too.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us now to a break. We will break for a brief period to allow changeovers in the Siambr. So, please suspend the broadcast.

Plenary was suspended at 15:30.
The Senedd reconvened at 15:36, with David Melding in the Chair.

David Melding AC: Order. Order. The Senedd is back in session.

7. Statement by the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales: The Economic Resilience Fund—Phase 3

David Melding AC: Item 7 is a statement by the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales: the economic resilience fund—phase 3. And I call the Minister, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. As we have said before, the economic picture is stark and unstable, and its future path is intrinsically linked to that of the pandemic and, indeed, the end of the EU transition period. As the picture of the economic position emerges, this intricate balance between public health and the economy has been brought into even sharper focus over recent days, with the announcement of further national and local restrictions to control the spread of the virus as we enter the autumn and winter period. Given this fluid and rapidly evolving context, and as we look to find the balance between rescue and recovery, it's clear that there is a strong rationale for continued support for businesses, for people and for communities in Wales to help improve their short to medium-term prospects.
The UK Government's coronavirus job retention scheme, which will end next month, has been essential in protecting Welsh jobs, and it's delivered support at an unprecedented scale that can only be provided by the UK Government.We've consistently urged the UK Government to put in place new arrangements in parallel with the coronavirus job retention schemebeing wound down. In particular, we've pressed for increased support for those sectors hit hardest, for greater efforts towards job creation as well as job security and more investment in training and skills, all of which would assist the economy to recover more rapidly.
Support should be offered to help workers who are being made redundant now, and those who will be made redundant in the weeks ahead, as current employment subsidy schemes disappear. More needs to be done to help people find new jobs and incentivise employers to hire workers. So we welcome the Chancellor's decision to extend the value added tax reduction for the hospitality and tourism sector until March 2021, to extend repayment deadlines for businesses that have deferred VAT and to provide more flexible terms for businesses that have taken out Government-backed loans. However, overall, the measures announced, unfortunately, are unlikely to be sufficient to prevent a large rise in unemployment in the months ahead. More needs to be done, and we will continue to press the UK Government to take bolder steps to assuring our economic recovery and supporting future prosperity for businesses and for people across the UK.
To date, our economic resilience fund has already supported 13,000 businesses, helping to secure more than 100,000 jobs for our citizens. Our £1.7 billion business support package, equivalent to 2.6 per cent of our gross value added, aims to complement and supplement other UK Government schemes, and means that companies in Wales have access to the most generous offer of help anywhere in the United Kingdom.
Now, following the principles of providing enhanced support, yesterday I announced that the Welsh Government is making an additional £140 million available to businesses to help them deal with the economic challenges of COVID-19 and the UK's impending exit from the EU. The funding from the third phase of the ERF will see wider support being provided to secure jobs and help businesses develop, as well as additional help for firms affected by local restrictions. This new phase of the ERF will see £80 million being made available to help businesses develop and secure the employment of their workforces, through business development grants, but they will require firms to commit some of their own resources in return. Some £20 million of this budget will be allocated to supporting tourism and hospitality businesses that I know are facing particular constraints and challenges as we enter the winter months. The scheme will also reward those businesses that create new job opportunities for under 25-year-olds. Meanwhile, an additional £60 million will be allocated to support in areas that are subject to local restrictions.

Ken Skates AC: Finally, I am considering how to use the Development Bank of Wales to consolidate and secure long-term patient capital to small and medium-sized enterprises in Wales as we navigate through the coming months. The business development grants will be open to businesses of all sizes. Microbusinesses, those that are employing between one and nine people, will be able to apply for up to £10,000, on the condition that they match this with their own investment of at least 10 per cent.SMEs, those businesses that employ between 10 and 249 people, will be able to apply for up to £150,000. Now, small businesses will be required to match this with their own funds of at least 10 per cent, and medium-sized businesses with at least 20 per cent of their own funding.Large businesses, those that employ over 250 people, will be able to apply for up to £250,000, on the condition that they match this with their own investment of at least 50 per cent.There will be an element of discretion in the fund to enable higher levels of support for microbusinesses and SMEs in the tourism and hospitality industries.
The eligibility checker, for companies to find out if they can access funding from the third phase of the ERF, will be live next week. Companies that received grant funding through phase 1 and/or 2 of the ERF, or non-domestic rate-linked grants, could also be eligible for further support through the third phase of the ERF. A further £60 million, as I've said, will be provided to support companies that are forced to close or are materially impacted by the current local restrictions.
The nature of local restrictions may vary according to differing circumstances, and may create a financial pressure for the Welsh Government if it is not mitigated in full by any UK Government response. I can say, in designing this next phase of support, we carefully analysed the economic data and incorporated learning from other areas of the UK that have been subjected to local restrictions, including, importantly, Leicester and Aberdeen. We are conscious that introducing local restrictions will impact on local economies, on businesses and employees alike, and we are working with our local partners to explore ways in which businesses may need to be supported during this time to meet their needs and those of workers and communities.
Business Wales remains the first port of call for advice for businesses, and our existing range of financial support options for businesses still remains in place. COVID-19 is an issue affecting the whole of the UK. The UK Government has a continued role to play in shaping and providing local economic support. I'm in active dialogue with UK Government Ministers on this.
We are going through a time like no other. Coronavirus and the increasing risk of the UK reaching the end of the European Union transition period without a deal have placed incredible challenge on our businesses. This announcement, though, provides the reassurance that our businesses need at a time they need it most, that further support will be available. It also leaves us with the flexibility to respond to circumstances, as they may arise, which will be important over the coming tumultuous months. As a Welsh Government, we continue to do all that we can to back our businesses, our communities and our workers.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon and for, also, the additional support that he has announced to support businesses here in Wales? I do appreciate, Minister, as well, in your statement, your welcoming of the various schemes that the Chancellor has announced to support businesses across the United Kingdom. I'm sure that you will also agree with me, Minister, that measures such as the job support scheme will give employers the breathing space that they need to protect employees' jobs whilst navigating what is likely to be, as you have said, Minister, a very difficult winter. A subject to further protect businesses by extending loan deadlines and deferring VAT for tourism and hospitality sectors I think will also provide welcome benefit to many businesses here in Wales.
Turning to your statement, Minister, it's been my view that the funding that was provided by the UK Government to the Welsh Government should be allocated directly to businesses sooner rather than later to prevent businesses falling through the gap. I do appreciate that the Welsh Government has sought to mitigate some of the gaps and tailor certain policies with policies that have been brought forward by the UK Government. As of last month, I think I'm right to say—you will correct me if I'm wrong on this, but—only half of the £500 million from the economic resilience fund had actually been distributed. So, it would be useful to have a breakdown of that £500 million allocation: what was spent on phase 1 and phase 2, what was left over from phase 2, and how much, if anything, you expect to be left over at the end of phase 3.
I also welcome the news that £60 million will be specifically for areas where lockdowns have been reimposed, because I think businesses, specially smaller businesses and SMEs, need clarity on how to access the funds. I think it's crucial that those funds get to those businesses as soon as possible. If the funding is there, then it should certainly be distributed as quickly as possible, and perhaps you could tell us more about how these particular funds will be getting to the right businesses in a timely manner.
The Treasury announced that businesses in England that are required to shut because of local lockdowns will be able to claim £1,500 per property every three weeks. Now, I do appreciate that businesses are not required to close as part of local lockdown measures here, but that may be necessary, and also, effectively, some businesses are shut down by the restrictions in place. So, have you given any consideration to the introduction of a similar scheme here in Wales? I can see that wasn't mentioned in First Minister's questions and it wasn't mentioned in the statement, but I'm hoping that you might be able to give us some more information in that area.
We do need some targeted economic support for communities and different business sectors that are most adversely affected by the pandemic, and I appreciate you've ring-fenced funding for the tourism and hospitality sector, but I do wonder if you've considered specific support for other specific sectors.
I was a bit concerned—I've had some correspondence in regards to businesses being concerned that they have to, effectively, be unionised before receiving some funding. So, it would be helpful if you could perhaps allay some concerns of businesses in that regard, because, clearly, being part of a union is not always suitable for some businesses, employers or employees, and that would, obviously, disenfranchise quite a number of businesses across Wales.
Finally, I wonder what consideration has been brought forward for a more comprehensive spending review of priorities, perhaps looking at other areas within your portfolio that are perhaps less essential during this particular period in order to redirect funds appropriately during the pandemic, and I wonder what spending considerations you've given over the recent months in that regard. Thank you, acting Presiding Officer.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his questions and very constructive and positive response to the statement today? Can I put on record my thanks to Russell George and all opposition spokespeople for the regular opportunity to discuss the economic crisis that we face? I find their contributions, their ideas and their critique very welcome indeed. There were a number of important questions that Russell George posed, but can I just say that he was absolutely right in identifying the Welsh Government's role as being a supportive role in terms of the work that we do with the UK Government in trying to save jobs? We are all in the business of trying to rescue businesses and save jobs right now. We are working closely together. I have very regular calls with UK Government Ministers, and I have to say that, on occasions, the UK Government has responded to the Welsh Government's critique and to the Welsh Government's calls for changes to systems, and they've done so in a positive way. I can identify one specific case where that's happened, and this is important in regard to the jobs support scheme. With regard to the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, we called for a number of changes to be made and those changes were made, and, as a consequence of that, more Welsh businesses were able to secure support through that particular scheme.
I welcome the jobs support scheme, very much so. It's absolutely vital that we avoided a cliff edge at the end of October. However, in our immediate assessment of the jobs support scheme, it has become apparent that a number of sectors and a significant number of businesses may not be able to draw down the support required in order to avoid job losses—that the intervention rate may not be significant enough. Therefore, whilst I welcome the jobs support scheme, I'd also urge UK Government Ministers to keep an open mind, to be very vigilant as to whether the scheme is operating as intended, and, if not, to make the necessary adjustments to ensure that as many businesses and as many workers as possible benefit. As I say, that happened with CBILS, and I hope that it will happen, if necessary, with the jobs support scheme.
We always intended to deploy the economic resilience fund in phases. We simply couldn't have spent the £500 million in a single phase and expected businesses to weather a storm that could, and is likely to, last beyond the autumn of this year. It was always our intention, therefore, to retain funding for further rounds of support for business. I believe that is the right thing to do. We've allocated to date £480 million of the £500 million of the economic resilience fund. That, of course, is in addition to the £768 million that has been invested in businesses across Wales through the rates-related grant scheme. That means that we have £20 million in reserve, and that is important for a potential further round of local restrictions-linked support in the winter. I recognise that there's great urgency required in terms of how we deploy our funding, and Business Wales, as I said in my statement, will be going live with their eligibility checker next week. By the end of October, applications will have been made by businesses and I think, as we've shown in previous rounds of support, we'll be getting money out of the door into business accounts in no time at all once those applications have been processed.
I can confirm as well that we're operating pretty much the same scheme as has been utilised in parts of England in terms of the grants that are being made available. And I should just say that no business is—as Russell George rightly said, no business is forced to close by the regulations, but it may well be that business owners feel that there is no option but to close, because of a loss of footfall and custom, and therefore there is the likelihood of a serious loss of income, of turnover, and therefore, in turn, it's vitally important that we step in and support those businesses on a rolling basis.
We've modelled how many businesses we can support with the £60 million of the local lockdown fund. We believe that, based on the current scenario across Wales, the current landscape, we'd be able to provide two rounds of funding to businesses through local lockdown interventions. That's a very significant period of support, because each period would likely last three weeks, and therefore this takes us through to the new year, when I say—. And I've already said, we've got £20 million in our reserve to deploy potentially a further round. That £20 million could also be utilised fornot so much sector-specific support, but any particular sub-regional activity that needs to take place, if there is a significant loss of jobs in a particular area. And we're working with local stakeholders, with local government leaders, to ensure that, where there is a particular challenge, we're able to deploy funds in that area, working closely together with local authority officials.
But there are other sectors that require urgent support—aerospace is perhaps the most obvious one. We've regularly called for a sector deal for aerospace, in light of the challenges that businesses are facing because of coronavirus. A taskforce has been established, led by Tom Williams, a superb expert in aerospace and aviation, and it's absolutely vital that we as a Welsh Government and the other devolved administrations play a full role in any activity concerning the response to the challenges that aerospace and aviation businesses face.
Can I just also touch on another important point that was raised? It's not true that union recognition is an absolute requirement of funding, because it's not always viable for union recognition in every instance, but what we have said is that, as a consequence of receiving economic resilience funds, it's absolutely vital that a business has signed up to the principles of the economic contract and then develops a firm economic contract. And, as part of the process of developing that firm economic contract, we have invited trade unions to engage with businesses that have benefited from the public purse. And I think that's absolutely right as we strive to build back better, as we strive to ensure that the recovery is just and fair. We make no apologies for doing all we can to support not just businesses but employees as well.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement today and for the positive engagement that he and Russell George have already referred to, across parties, during this crisis. And I'm very grateful that, in some of the announcements that the Minister has made today, he clearly has actively engaged with those discussions and has taken that on board, and particularly referencing here that I know that we've raised with him the potential impact of local lockdowns, and it's really pleasing to see the investment that he intends to make.
Can I begin by asking for a little bit more detail on the likely eligibility for local lockdown resources? It may very well be, as the Minister said in response to Russell George, that businesses aren't required to close, and some of them may not close, but the impact on their trading may be really severe. They may feel that it's better to keep going on, particularly if it's only, let's say, a three-week lockdown, but their profits may absolutely fall through the floor. So, is the Minister anticipating that businesses will have to actually close before they can apply for support, or will there be some potential flexibility there? And can he tell us a little bit more about how those local lockdown grants are likely to be delivered? The Minister, obviously quite rightly, says that Business Wales will be the first port of call for the bulk of the economic resilience fund, but I'd submit that there may be a case for local government to be involved there.
The Minister welcomes the job support scheme and, of course, everybody is glad to see the UK Government taking action, but, as the Minister has said, there are some businesses for whom that is not going to be helpful, that putting people potentially onto part-time work won't work.
I very much welcome the Minister's announcement of £20 million for tourism and hospitality businesses, but he also refers to businesses needing to use their own resources. Now, because of the impact that tourism and hospitality businesses faced earlier in the summer when they couldn't open at all, and, when they have opened in a responsible way, the business levels have dropped, and also, I'm sad to say, still some very bad practice by insurance companies of those businesses, some of those businesses, I would put it to the Minister, may very well not have resources that they can invest, and this would also be true for cultural businesses, like venues where gigs are held. So, I wonder if he can provide us with some reassurance that that will be taken into account and that, for those businesses that, for good reasons, don't have resources of their own to put in and may have exhausted their capacity to borrow, there will be some support available for them.
I wonder if he can tell us whether or not microbusinesses and sole traders are likely to benefit from this round. And I'd also like to ask whether the Minister is confident that Business Wales has got the capacity to deal with this new round of very welcome funding. We do need, as the Minister said himself, to get it out of the door.
Finally,I'm very pleased to hear the Minister say that he's in active dialogue with the UK Government. I wonder if that dialogue—and it might not be his portfolio, but across Government—includes ongoing discussions about increasing the borrowing powers of Welsh Government, because it seems to me that in the longer term—a good partnership with the UK Government is, of course, desirable—but longer term, Welsh Ministers may wish to make substantial investments that their current borrowing powers won't allow. The Minister mentions the specific sector of aerospace, and I wonder if his dialogues with the UK Government—I'm sure they do—relate to support for the steel industry, because that is beyond the current capacity of Welsh Government financially.
And finally, in those ongoing discussions with UK Government, can I ask the Minister once again if he will consider raising the case of those who have not been helped, particularly the people who were not helped by the furlough scheme? Some of them, of course, have successfully moved on, they're in other jobs, but some of them had to use all their savings. I've dealt with young people who've lost deposits for houses and people who've been partly self-employed who've had to spend their tax savings. So, can I ask him if he will agree with me that the campaign, ExcludedUK, does still have a case to make, and to ask the Chancellor whether there is any support that could be given to those who were not helped? I would, of course, ask if that could be done at a Welsh level, but I do understand what the Minister has said in the past about the capacity of the Welsh budget and needing to target support at keeping jobs going. But I think it is important for those many thousands of Welsh citizens who find themselves in that position at least that we acknowledge in this place that, by us, they are not forgotten.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her questions and her contribution, and can I say that Helen Mary Jones has had a hand in ensuring that the Welsh Government responds correctly and adequately to business needs? The regular conversations that we've had have helped to shape all three phases of the economic resilience fund, and I'm incredibly grateful for not just the support but the constructive criticism that has been offered.
I'm going to try to respond to all of the important queries that have been raised in the order that they were raised by Helen Mary Jones. First of all, with regard to eligibility, some businesses will not require co-investment. The £20 million fund for tourism and hospitality businesses allowed for discretion and therefore an 100 per cent intervention rate. It won't be necessary for all those businesses, therefore, who are applying for this support to co-invest. And I very much agree with Helen Mary Jones that a huge number of businesses in the tourism and hospitality sectors simply do not have any more financial resource to invest, and they've also in many instances exhausted all borrowing as well. Therefore, a 100 per cent intervention level will be required for many, many businesses.
In terms of eligibility and the question of whether businesses will be required to close, the answer is 'no'. Businesses will not be required to close in order to secure funding. They'll have to be able to prove that they've been materially affected over the course of local restrictions being imposed, and that will amount to a drop in turnover of at least 40 per cent. We're working incredibly closely with local government friends and colleagues in terms of administering this third phase of support. I have to put on record my thanks to local government colleagues for the tirelessness of their endeavours in making sure that the first two phases of the ERF and the rates related grants were administered swiftly, and that support in terms of signposting businesses towards Business Wales was done correctly as well.
I have to say that alongside the support that we announced yesterday, my friend and colleague Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomasalso announced a £7 million fund for freelancers in the creative industries. This is proving to be a lifeline for many, many talented creative people, and I was delighted to see Dafydd Elis-Thomas make that announcement.
And in response to the question about where additional flexibility is required by the Welsh Government, the Minister for finance has regularly spoken of the need for Welsh Government to be able to operate with a greater degree of flexibility, to be able to borrow more, and so forth, and that position remains the case.
Steel is hugely important to the Welsh economy, and likewise automotive and aerospace businesses that are facing particular pressure and which require support beyond what the Welsh Government is able to afford. And in our regular discussions with UK Government counterparts, I impress upon Ministers the need to bring forward bold action to support these hugely important manufacturing sectors.
We'll also go on pressing the UK Government to be responsive and responsible in terms of supporting those who continue to fall through the gaps, who have yet to receive support that is absolutely required in order to ensure that their enterprises can survive this pandemic. I have to say that those discussions are not always fruitful, but equally, in many instances, as I outlined in my answers to Russell George, there have been positive responses on a number of occasions from counterparts, particularly within the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and the Wales Office.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement, and can I endorse Helen Mary's comments with regard to our ability to have discourse with you, which allows us some input and gives us greater insight into your thinking behind the Welsh Government interventions?
There is no doubt that these interventions will be welcome news for those many businesses who are struggling, not just to stay open throughout COVID, but to survive in the long term. My party acknowledges here that your support over and above that given by the UK Government has been invaluable, and I have had many businesspeople confirm this to me. In fact, I even had one tell me he was thinking of voting Labour for the first time. Of course, I had to talk him out of that one. [Laughter.]
However, figures speak for themselves: phase 1 is said to have saved 56,000 jobs, followed by a further 18,000 in phase 2. I think you may have better figures than that, actually, Minister. However, Minister, do you not agree these are simply short-term measures, a fact which can be seen if we look at the funds available to qualifying microbusinesses—that is £10,000 if they put up 10 per cent themselves? Ten per cent, I feel, is a reasonable figure to ask of those businesses, by the way. But £10,000, even for microbusinesses, will only sustain them for a short period. What they desperately need to do is to carry on trading at the levels prior to COVID.
It is crucial, therefore, Minister, that Government lockdowns are only initiated when absolutely necessary. I'm sure you will agree, Minister, that pressure on all business operations is mounting daily, and we know the consequences will last for a long period of time. So, again, Minister, I thank you for these latest interventions, but if we continue with these lockdowns, I fear a large proportion of the business community will be lost forever.

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank David Rowlands for the way that he has endorsed our actions to date? I really am very grateful for the comments that he's made today. And, yes, our actions have led to a very significant number of jobs being secured: more than 106,000 to date through the first two phases of the economic resilience fund and, of course, 16,000 jobs have been secured through the support that was brought forward by the development bank.
Members will be aware of the current rate of unemployment in Wales: 3.1 per cent. That's a full 1 per cent less than the UK average. Now, we know unemployment is going to rise, it’s going to rise sharply, but that 1 per cent difference between the Welsh average and the UK average amounts, in real terms, to about 15,000 people—15,000 people who may well have been unemployed at this point in time had it not been for the added value that we've brought through the first two phases of the economic resilience fund. And as I said just yesterday, to put that into perspective, that's the entire working population of Brynmawr and Ebbw Vale, or of Mold and Buckley. It's a huge intervention and I'm proud of the jobs that we have therefore saved, and I'm proud of the businesses that we have kept alive during this incredibly difficult period. But all of that hard work and investment could have counted for nothing had the job retention scheme ended with a cliff edge at the end of October, and that's why the job support scheme's so very important, and why our third phase of the economic resilience fund has to complement the job support scheme.
Now, business development grants—that £80 million of support that I've outlined—are about building resilience and adapting to the economy of tomorrow, but we also recognise that in order to reach the economy of tomorrow, many businesses required bridges, bridges through the autumn and the winter, and that's why we're rolling out that £60 million of support for those businesses that are going to be faced in the coming weeks and months by local restrictions. As I said in my answers to Helen Mary Jones, we are not requiring any businesses to close in order to draw down that funding, just to demonstrate that they are materially affected, and the amount of support that's being offered is, I think, sufficient for businesses to be able to survive those difficult periods of restrictions.
Business development grants and the ask for match funding, I think, demonstrate our desire to be able to move beyond coronavirus in a way that recognises certain sectors have great opportunities for jobs growth, and therefore the requirement of a contribution from businesses is absolutely right if we are to ensure that we maximise opportunities for growth in those sectors that are resilient and that are able to emerge rapidly. But, equally, there are some hugely important sectors, such as tourism and hospitality, where the intervention rate will be 100 per cent because, as I've already said, businesses are simply not able to borrow any more money or are not able to invest any of their own resources in their survival and their adaptation to the new norm.

David Melding AC: Now, I've got five Labour Members and one more opposition Member who wants to contribute, so just a minute, please. I do intend to call you all, this is an important statement, but we are pressed for time also this afternoon. Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement and for the additional information you've given us today because I'm sure that the further grants and support that you've announced will assist a number of businesses in my constituency, many of which— particularly in the hospitality sector—have contacted me expressing serious concern about how they can continue to operate within the new local restrictions that now apply in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, however necessary these restrictions might be? So, the £60 million for businesses specifically in these areas is particularly welcome.
However, one issue that I've been considering closely is the plight of major activity attractions in my constituency, like BikePark Wales and Rock UK Summit Centre, given that the local restrictions in Merthyr Tydfil have taken away their customer base, which is primarily from out of county. You've talked about particular support for the tourist industry, so can you tell me whether any consideration is specifically being given to such businesses that provide activities predominantly either outdoors or in facilities that have very large internal spaces? For example, is it possible that some limited easing of travel restrictions could be considered to allow these businesses in the environments that I've outlined to seek some resumption of activity, or are you confident, given the additional information you've given us today, that the additional support measures that you've announced will be sufficient to get these particular businesses through the current phase of new local restrictions?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Dawn Bowden for her question and say that we start from a position of prioritising public health? We have to ensure that we get the virus under control within those areas that are subject to local restrictions. That's crucially important not just to the well-being and welfare and health of people, but also to the well-being of local economies and the economies of communities that Dawn Bowden has identified.
In terms of support for activity attractions that rely on footfall from beyond their borders, we cannot, I don't think, make exceptions to the rule. It's absolutely vital that we remain consistent because businesses across all sectors, I think, could make a very, very valid case for exemptions from the rules, and once you allow one, then you open the door to others seeking exemption from local restrictions. Instead, we believe that it's more important to offer a pan-economic response, and that's what we're doing with the £60 million of funding, but equally we recognised that businesses such as activity attractions that form part of tourism and hospitality required additional support, and that is why we have a further £20 million available for businesses to be able to get through this difficult period.
But in terms of local restrictions, the support is provided on the basis of this being a short-term temporary measure to see businesses througha period of around three weeks. That is the aim for the local lockdown fund, and it's based on having learnt from places like Aberdeen and Leicester that have gone through the process of applying local restrictions and supporting businesses. We are confident that, based on successful models elsewhere, the model here in Wales will be successful in getting businesses through very, very difficult periods.

David Melding AC: Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I think you can hear me now. Thank you very much. I think manufacturing is absolutely crucial to the well-being of our future economy, and we saw what great work was done with getting manufacturers to make PPE during the pandemic. Most recently, we had the closure of the Ford Bridgend car plant, a victim of the UK's refusal to remain in the single European market, and the American multinational has now taken its investment elsewhere in Europe; our loss, some other country's gain.
So, I want to explore your strategy for redeploying those manufacturing skills of the Ford workforce amid this upheaval. For example, as you may have heard earlier, I today tried out an e-scooter, which has the potential to eliminate 17 car journeys for every e-scooter, and is obviously a great contribution to the climate emergency, because it only uses 2 per cent of the carbon emissions of a car. But it's currently manufactured in China; it could easily be manufactured in Wales, and the sort of skills that the Ford workers have could easily be redeployed.
Equally, I know that secondary headteachers in my constituency are crying out to source bicycles for their pupils who live further afield, to enable them to avoid the risk of having to travel by bus. These are things we could be doing in Wales, so is this something that you are centrally focusing on as one of your top priorities to ensure that we have the things in Wales that are fundamental to our foundational economy?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for the important points that she makes about manufacturing? Manufacturing businesses employ 10 per cent of the Welsh workforce. Across the UK, the equivalent percentage is 8 per cent, and so manufacturing is more important to Wales than it is to the UK generally in terms of the value that it adds the economy. Members may be aware that I recently launched a manufacturing plan for consultation. It's out for consultation until the middle of October; I'd encourage all Members to make their thoughts and views known in regard to the plan. It contains proposed actions that directly touch on what Jenny Rathbone has outlined: a need to reskill, a need to identify new opportunities for manufacturing businesses and workers.
I can say that in terms of the closure of Ford, I was listening diligently to questions to my friend and colleague Rebecca Evans earlier. A written statement regarding the closure of the Bridgend plant was issued on 24 September, and pretty much every member of staff at that plant received support from Careers Wales, through the regional employment response team, helping them identify what their skills are and how they might be able to capture employment opportunities at other businesses—or crucially, start their own business, and a good number of people at Ford have started their own businesses.
Jenny Rathbone will be aware that a jobs and skills matching service is being operated by Working Wales and that we recently announced an additional £40 million of funding for individuals to gain the skills or to reskill in areas of activity where we know jobs will be in existence in the years to come. I think COVID has demonstrated how many of our manufacturers are able to turn their hand to new opportunities as well. We know that, for example, at the advanced manufacturing research centre, a very significant number of aerospace workers turned their hands to producing PPE, and as a result of that work, we are now stealing a march on some international manufacturers in terms of producing vital equipment for our domestic market. So within the manufacturing plan, which is out for consultation at the moment, there is a very, very significant focus on shortening supply chainsand reshoring manufacturing opportunities here in Wales.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for his statement this afternoon. I particularly welcome, like others, the additional £60 million of support for businesses in the areas with special restrictions at the moment, and I know that is something that will be warmly welcomed in Blaenau Gwent. Can I ask the Minister to ensure that this additional support reaches small businesses particularly, and reaches people who are self-employed? I've been contacted by a number of businesses who are really very, very worried about the future, and they need this bridge to get them through these next few months to enable them to succeed in the future. Minister, could you also confirm that this is support for businesses who already comply with all their existing regulatory and legal responsibilities? We want to see a fair recovery from COVID, and we want to ensure that we play fair with businesses who are supporting the community already, and that the economic and social contract you've spoken about remains true as part of this additional support. And finally, Minister, you and I launched the Tech Valleys initiative some three years ago now in Ebbw Vale, to help provide significant investment into the local economy there. Can you confirm that the Welsh Government remains committed to that vision that we outlined some years ago, and that the Welsh Government will continue with that investment programme, through the COVID crisis, to ensure that we are able to continue to build an economic—to ensure that the economy of Blaenau Gwent continues to have this sort of investment that we require? Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Alun Davies for his comments and his questions? Normally, during the course of a recession, inequalities are blown wide open, and we are working tirelessly to make sure that, as we recover from coronavirus, we narrow inequalities within our regions and across the regions. And so, investment in the Tech Valleys initiative and investment in communities that the Member serves will continue. We are determined to ensure that, as we build back better, we do so in a way that is green, that is fair and is just. Economic contracts will be developed with those businesses that are in receipt of the business development grants, and the UK Government is working on replacement support for the self-employment support scheme. We need to ensure that our support for self-employed people dovetails with anything the UK Government brings forward in the weeks to come. I have to say that businesses that break any restrictions will not benefit from public investment if they are putting public health at risk. And so, there are powers that are available to local authorities; we made them available on 14 September. If they utilise them in regard to a business that is not following the restrictions, then we would refuse support to those businesses, because, as I say, we will not be rewarding businesses that put public health at risk.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. My entire region is in lockdown now, so they will be very grateful to hear about the £60 million you refer to. But I've got some very specific asks from the tourism sector, the first of which you've already answered. I was very grateful to you for your answer to Helen Mary Jones that these businesses won't necessarily need to comply with certain conditions. But they are called development grants, and I'd be grateful if you could confirm today that they will available for a wide range of needs, not least staff retention and overheads, because this will still be about cash flow, rather than a fundamental flaw in business plans for so many of these businesses, particularly those who've taken a second lockdown hit. But I think the differences matter as well between these organisations, and that's why I raised animal attractions as needing very specific attention when I was speaking earlier today. I don't think the ERF can fully cover the needs of animal attractions without an understanding of animal welfare and additional requirements for that.
Another issue, thereafter, is some certainty. No doubt you'll say that we need to respond to the virus, but visitor attractions are responding to the virus—they're COVID compliant or they're not open, as we were just saying now. So, what can you say to attractions who need to plan now for a COVID compliant Christmas offer, particularly as they may need to turn to the ERF in order for them to prepare for that offer?
Finally, as this is part of your department as well, can you give us a little indication about how you're promoting this message to the public—that the visitor attractions are safe and open outside lockdown areas, and even within lockdown areas residents can still visit them for their physical and mental health? Diolch.

David Melding AC: Minister, I do realise the Member didn't hear me stop her after 1 minute and 30 seconds—

Suzy Davies AC: Oh, sorry.

David Melding AC: —so I do apologise to the other Members, but I was trying to indicate that that contribution was too long, especially the final point that was made. But, Minister, please answer as crisply as possible.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you. With regard to tourism-related businesses, we're obviously in ongoing dialogue with the UK Government. My friend and colleague Dafydd Elis-Thomas is in very, very regular contact with counterparts in the UK Government and has been pressing the case for a tourism and hospitality-related support package from the UK Government. Business development grants will require a business to demonstrate how they have a plan to get beyond coronavirus, to survive not just the immediate challenge but to thrive in the future.
I take on board very much the points raised regarding animal welfare issues. We're in discussions across departments within the Welsh Government regarding support that's required by animal visitor attractions. But, it has to be said that through the first two phases of the economic resilience fund we were able to invest very heavily indeed in zoos and other animal attractions.
In terms of the COVID-compliant Christmas offer that the Member suggested, I think it's probably retail that needs the greatest help in this regard. When I spoke to the Welsh Retail Consortium recently, they said that their message to consumers is to buy now and don't wait until just before Christmas—pace your purchasing—and I'd very much support that message to the population of Wales.
In regard to getting the message out more widely regarding attractions that are open, of course, the Welsh Association of Visitor Attractions has an important role in this regard, in making sure that the public are aware that visitor attractions are operating in a very safe, COVID-proof way. Dafydd Elis-Thomas and I both speak with visitor attractions that have shown incredible resource in adapting to coronavirus, that are operating safely and that are enjoying good customer feedback as a consequence of the responsible actions that they've taken. We want to be able to help businesses like those through the deployment of those business development grants, which will not just offer the bridge through coronavirus but an opportunity to bounce back once we're through this pandemic.

David Rees AC: Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon and for the work the Welsh Government is actually doing to support our businesses throughout this pandemic. I echo the concerns of Helen Mary Jones regarding the steel sector. I listened to your answers, but I have lost confidence in the UK Government at this point in time, particularly as Project Birch seems to have come to a halt. Therefore, I ask you not just to speak to them but to actually shout out loudly and call them out on Project Birch.
In relation to phase 3 of the ERF, can you confirm that businesses that may already have applied for support can still apply for more support from this fund? For example, I have a business in my constituency that provides sound engineering for major concerts and outdoor events. Now, they've not had any business since lockdown started, and they're unlikely to have any business for the next several months. They cannot, probably, afford to include funding to support that because they've had no income in that time. Can you confirm that businesses such as that are able to get funding from this fund to ensure that they can survive? Because they offer a fantastic service to the industry and the entertainment sector, but without that support they may not be here in six months' time.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Dai Rees for his questions and assure him that we make the case for the Welsh steel industry every single week that we have contact with the UK Government? It's absolutely vital that support is brought forward for the steel sector and, as I said earlier, for the automotive sector, for aerospace and for aviation.
In direct regard to the question that he raised about support through the third phase of the economic resilience fund, I can confirm that businesses that had previously applied for support, whether they secured it or not, can apply for this third phase of supportfrom the economic resilience fund, because the type of support that we're offering on this occasion is different. It's about making sure that businesses can get through local restrictions and that businesses are able to adapt to the new economy.

David Melding AC: And to finish this statement, a final question—Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement and for the details on this funding. Can I ask very crisply in respect of the coach and tour industry—? I have hundreds of people employed in my constituency who work in this industry, and I know you're familiar with it—can you consider whether it is appropriate for some of these companies to actually be categorised as transport as opposed to tourism and hospitality, which is as much a part of their business, because not being categorised as such disqualifies them from certain benefits in terms of VAT, in terms of council tax and so on? It seems to me that that would be of considerable assistance, particularly to coach companies in my constituency.
I very much welcome the statement in respect of aviation and your comments there. Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has called for changing the law to make it unlawful for companies to fire and then rehire on lower terms and conditions. Would you support a call for that law change? And also, in terms of grants, can you ensure that companies that adopt that course of action would not qualify ethically for Welsh Government support?

Ken Skates AC: I thank Mick Antoniw for his questions. We'll certainly look at categorisation of coach companies. Coach companies of course will be able to apply for and, if they meet the criteria, will be able to secure economic resilience funding through the third phase, just as they were able to secure it during the first two phases of support.
I would also echo the comments that Mick Antoniw made in regard to firing and hiring. It's essential, as I said in response to an earlier contribution, that as we look to the recovery we attempt to narrow inequalities, to enhance fair working practices, rather than allow what happens in most circumstances when there's a recession, which is that you see workers' rights being depleted, you see inequalities widen, you see those communities that were left behind before a recession left behind even further once you emerge from it. That will not happen on this occasion. We are determined to ensure that we build a fairer and a greener and a more just economy.

David Melding AC: Thank you very much, Minister.

8. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government: Town Centres: Securing their future

David Melding AC: We now move to item 8, which is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government on town centres—securing their future. Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. I wanted to take the opportunity to update members on the £90 million transforming towns package announced in January and the written statement issued shortly before summer recess on support for our town centres to cope with the coronavirus pandemic.
A sense of pride in place is at the heart of communities right across the country. Places for leisure, living, working and learning. Towns that match the needs of today whilst remaining rooted to their proud heritage. The pandemic has neither changed our commitment nor our ambition. If anything, it has reinforced and reignited it. But it has changed the circumstances and accelerated well-established trends like the growth of online sales and pressure on the retail sector.
We've also witnessed more positive changes, with a new appreciation of the green spaces and nature on our doorstep and reduced traffic, congestion and, consequently, emissions, alongside a shift towards shopping local and the rise in popularity of outdoor markets. We must lock in these positive changes. Creating green and clean communities, with improvements like the greening of public space, addressing drainage and improving air quality, is central to shaping the town centres of tomorrow.
The transforming towns green infrastructure support is enabling us to put this aspiration into action today, with 20 projects worth a total value of £9 million, like the scheme in Newtown that will redirect rainfall from high-street buildings and car parks through sustainable drainage systems and create rain gardens and landscaped areas.
The COVID-19 pandemic makes it even more important for us to put our transforming towns agenda into action now, and we are putting it into action, enabling town-centre adaptations to support current circumstances but that at the same time could offer an insight into different ways of driving footfall in the future—from outdoor seating, shelter and heating for cafes and pubs, and outdoor waiting areas for salons in Monmouthshire, to social distancing signage and adaptations in 10 Anglesey towns, to providing lighting and power for outdoor markets in Neath Port Talbot. Swansea local authority alone has received over 200 expressions of interest and has been, in their words, overwhelmed by the relief and positive feedback from local independent businesses.
The Vale of Glamorgan is targeting accessibility, active travel and green infrastructure with new cycle racks, storage, planters, seating, footway widening to create space for businesses, lighting improvements and moveable stalls. The focus is on Barry, Cowbridge, Llantwit Major and Penarth, linking with a marketing campaign, financed by our transforming towns revenue funding to aid the recovery of those town centres.
This revenue funding is being put to use by local authorities to market town centres, dial-up digital solutions, improve appearances and tackle empty properties.
We know that long-standing empty properties are a blight on our communities. That's why I've brought in an additional £15.2 million fund to ramp up enforcement and have provided a further £10 million in loan funding to support businesses to revitalise empty properties. Applications are now in for the loan funding from local authorities and the money will be allocated shortly.
Supporting and securing the future of our towns in a way that brings benefits for our people, our places and our planet is a cross-Government priority. Whether it's the local sustainable transport fund promoting active travel solutions, support for major tourism initiatives, investment in landmark heritage projects, funding for community projects, or the local places for nature grants, towns across Wales are benefiting from cross-Government intervention.
COVID-19 means that we must be even more determined about putting into practice our town-centre-first principle, working collaboratively and in partnership both within and outside of Government. It will require a new way of working at the centre of Government. My colleagues in Welsh Government have agreed that town-centre first will be the lens through which every new idea will be considered. That is requiring new ways of working within Welsh Government and with our partners to ensure that we spot the creative opportunities to bring new economic opportunity and vibrancy back to the centre of our communities.
As well as boosting footfall and employment, town-centre locations bring environmental benefits, with opportunities for green infrastructure, both in terms of public spaces and places for reuse and repair, and co-location, reducing the reliance on long commutes and car journeys.
This Government has made clear its commitment to enabling people to work closer to home, working in a way that could improve both livelihoods and lifestyles. Co-working spaces or hubs co-located within town centres support regeneration and economic activity and underpins our town-centre-first approach.
Over the years, as the way in which we work and live has changed, so has the way we use our town centres. To help us rise to the challenge of this change and recognising that it is not Government alone that has all the answers or a role to play, I have established the ministerial town-centre action group, with external expertise, supported by multidisciplinary regional action groups to identify and prioritise actions that will bolster our town centres in the short and long term.
Community engagement and empowerment is central to this. This is not just about places but the people that make them, and it is only right that they shape their future. The action group will be prioritising this issue and we're also conducting a communications campaign to engage local businesses and communities and link with local authorities' marketing of their town centres.
We are all in no doubt that town centres across the UK face challenges. Here in Wales, supporting them through COVID-19 and into the future remains a priority for this Government. Our towns matter; they matter to me and they matter to people throughout Wales. They're not just centres of business and trade, important though that is, they are places that matter to us on a much more intrinsic level, places that are part of who we are and where we're from. Places that we all want to see not simply get by but come back better, reaffirming our pride in place to bring benefits for our local communities, economy and environment.

Mark Isherwood AC: You refer to the £90 million transforming towns package announced in January and the written statement that you issued shortly before summer recess on support for our town centres to cope with the coronavirus pandemic. Your written statement on 15 July, announcing a £9 million fund, stated that £5.3 million of this was from the transforming towns programme and £3.7 million from Valleys taskforce funding. Is this, therefore, new funding or part of the £90 million already announced in January?
The UK Government has announced a £3.6 billion towns fund to support towns across England. Although most of this funding came from UK Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government departmental spending for England, which did not, therefore, generate additional Barnett consequential funding for the Welsh Government, all of the funding for the towns fund in England is drawn from pots that will generate funding for the Welsh Government. Given that the Welsh Government will therefore make its own decisions on how to spend this, will you be spending at least an equivalent sum on transforming towns in Wales?
Small towns in Wales account for almost 40 per cent of the whole population of the country. Five of the 10 most deprived areas in Wales are located within towns, including Rhyl, Wrexham and Merthyr Tydfil. A Welsh Conservative Government would therefore establish a £200 million seaside town fund and market town fund to help regenerate Wales's local communities, which would help level up investment across Wales and, critically, enable communities to decide how the fund is to be invested within their local area.
How, therefore, would you respond to the statement by FSB Cymru, the Federation of Small Businesses, that we need a new approach for our high streets, including publishing town strategies in every town, ensuring the ownership is local, and businesses, voluntary and public sectors are engaged,establishing a property register where interventions often fail with absent or unidentifiable landlords, to build a basis for engagement, and rethinking the role of business rates in towns, replicating the English relief of high-street businesses?
Your statement in July stated that the £9 million fund would complement the Welsh Government's local sustainable transport fund and make it safer and easier for people to get around their local town. You also state today that the greening of public space, addressing drainage and improving air quality are central to shaping the town centres of tomorrow. How do you therefore respond to the call by the Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru and Guide Dogs Cymru for the Welsh Government to ensure that people with sight loss, and other disabled people, are not unfairly disadvantaged by changes to the built environment, or any other measures taken in response to coronavirus?
Your statement in July also stated the £9 million fund would complement funding to support business improvement districts' running costs for three months. A business improvement district is where local businesses—[Inaudible.]—and work together with partners to form a group to invest money and make improvements to an area. However, when I checked the Welsh Government website today, it stated that there are currently only 16 business improvement districts in Wales that could only get—[Inaudible.]—support up to March 2020, is available for each proposed business improvement district area. So, what, please, can you update us, is the current position with them?
Finally, you state today that community engagement and empowerment is central to identifying and prioritising actions that will bolster our town centres, and that the ministerial town-centre action group will be prioritising this. When I questioned you about this in January, referring to the extensive work carried out by the Carnegie Trust on the enabling state and 'Turnaround Towns', which found the future of our towns is about more than just the high street, it's also about residents' access to levers of change and their ability to influence decisions, and that communities are best placed to bring a wealth of local knowledge and collective energy to the decisions that affect them, you replied:
'One of the things we are doing as part of this package is looking in terms of how we can take forward more of a communications approach with communities, to work with them, to actually talk about the support that we're talking about and get their input'.
So, finally, what concrete measures have you therefore put in place since January to make this happen? Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank the Member for a number of questions and points that he made in response to the statement there? I'll try my best to endeavour to cover them as fully as I can. In respect of any consequentials, the Member was right, we did not receive any additional funding, but the £90 million that we've put in to our transforming towns by far dwarfs any consequentials that we get from the UK Government, and we are very much committed to supporting our town centres, as I outlined in this statement and prior to this. And although the transforming towns is a £90 million loan, this is not the only investment that is going into our towns; there's investment from across Government, from tourism, from Local Places for Nature and from a huge amount of things, not to mention the business support that has been enabled through the economic resilience fund.
The Member referred to FSB Cymru and their report and the comments they've made, and I made clear in my statement that I don't believe Government alone has all the answers, all the suggestions, for how we rise to the challenge. And I very much welcome that FSB Cymru, along with other partners and stakeholders, are part of the ministerial action group that is helping with takingus forward in terms of, actually, how we address a number of priority challenges within Wales when it comes to our town centres. That engagement with communities is part of it, because, actually, for something to succeed, the community needs to be part of shaping that and to continue and take it forward. One of the means I'm looking to do is actually making sure that community and town councils, who are often embedded in the local communities through various roles that they play, are actually able to access and have greater influence in terms of the local authority and in accessing support for their towns themselves.
I did mention in the statement, if the Member recalls, about a communication campaign, and this would be looking at a pilot in a number of areas, in geographically spread areas right across Wales, on actually how we better pilot ways of engaging with people to not only talk about the investment that has happened, but make sure they shape any investment in the future.
The Member specifically referred to towns in north Wales such as Rhyl and Wrexham, and, to all Members, I am more than happy to supply a more detailed exhibition map in terms of what investment is going into those towns and across Wales.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I thank the Deputy Minister very much for her statement. As she says, our towns are very important to us, and I'm sure that she'd agree with me that the crisis has highlighted just how important local communities are, but that we will also be perhaps using our towns and our town centres in different ways, partly as a result of the crisis.
The Deputy Minister mentions in her statement opportunities for more local shopping, and, while I'm sure that that is the case, it's also true, for example, that many people have moved towards online shopping rather than shopping directly at all. So, I'm wondering what assessment the Deputy Minister has made or could make of the sorts of businesses that people are currently using more of in our town centres and might be persuaded to use more of as we move forward, because I think it's important that we target encouragement and support at those businesses that are most likely to be successful.
The Deputy Minister mentioned local working hubs. I was very glad to hear her mention those. I wonder if she can say a little bit more in her response to me about how that work is developing. Who does she see developing those hubs? Is that a job for local authorities, is it local co-operatives? I wonder if she has had any discussions with some of the large employers. We've seen big employers in Cardiff, for example, like Admiral and Lloyds, have their staff working from home. For some people, they'll want to continue working from home; many of them would like to work more locally. Is there a role for those big companies, potentially, in investing in that kind of local working hub in some of our Valleys towns, for example?
The Minister makes some references to re-purposing of public spaces that has already happened, but I know that she's very aware that there's a very complex regulatory regime around changing how public spaces are used, and I wonder if she can reassure us that she is working with colleagues across Government to make it easier for local authorities to make those changes, always bearing in mind, of course, the caveat that Mark Isherwood has mentioned about needing to make sure that any of those changes do not create difficulties for disabled people, or, indeed, parents with prams.
I wonder if she's given any consideration to what further might be able to be done to enable more people to actually live in our town centres. She'll be aware of the work that was done recently, in the last couple of years, by Carmarthenshire County Council, where they purchased some disused big shops in the town centre, broke them into smaller units and then converted the spaces above those shops into flats that are now used, and, of course, that means that people are in the town centre, they're using local shops when they can, using local pubs and cafes, and I wonder if the Minister would join me in congratulating Carmarthenshire for that and whether she thinks that's an approach that might be used further.
Finally, and with thanks for your indulgence, acting Presiding Officer, I wonder what further consideration the Deputy Minister and her colleagues have given to the impact of the business rates regime on, particularly, small businesses in the town centres and whether any further work needs to be done to encourage particularly new and innovative small businesses to get off the ground, some of which might be deterred by the business rates regime as it is, and whether there is further work that she and her colleagues across Government could do in that regard.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I absolutely agree with the Member's comments with regard to how the importance and the role of local communities has been really brought to the fore during the past six months or so, and how many people have gone above and beyond, whether they be volunteers or whether they be small businesses, diversifying not just to support their businesses, but tosupport the more vulnerable in the local community as well.
In terms of actually—. The Member raises a really good point in terms of, actually, that analysis of those local businesses within town centres and how they are managing to diversify. Our revenue funding through our transforming towns funding has enabled local authorities to work with town centres in terms of their digital offer. I think that's really important—it's a really important area of work moving forward, enabling those smaller, independent businesses to increase what they can do online, whether that be actually adjusting to COVID—we have seen it accelerated during the pandemic—whether that's adjusting to, actually, just having some kind of online, web, presence, or offering things like a call and collect or a click and collect service. So, digital in terms of actually how we support small, independent businesses but also town centres as a whole in terms of, actually, that digital can be used to improve the offer and to actually manage footfall and promote footfall within town centres as well.
The Member talks about the repurposing of public spaces and the need to work across Government in terms of actually how we make that accessible, but in a way, as she said, that takes into account the points that the Member, Mark Isherwood, raised with regard to not creating extra hurdles or burdens to access town centres. Absolutely we recognise this is not—as I said in the statement, this is not something for one area of Government or one portfolio alone, and it's not just something for Government alone. We need to work right across Government and we are doing so, and not just within Government, but with local authority partners and the third sector, and those right across the public sector and private sector too, which, as she says, is absolutely crucial in terms of actually how we take forward identifying these co-working hubs right across towns in Wales. She mentioned about Valleys towns, and I'm absolutely committed and keen to making sure that a wide range of towns, and the people that live in those towns, get to reap the benefits of this agenda moving forward. One of the steps that we're taking as a Government that I've asked officials to action is to actually get a clearer understanding of where public sector property is within towns, to offer that leverage to take this agenda forward.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister, on this particularly important subject. Over the years we've had various initiatives rolled out to regenerate our run-down and depleted town centres, and indeed 70 per cent of our constituents said that regenerating our towns should be a Government priority. Obviously, no-one yet has all the answers, but strategic and creative regeneration and repurposing solutions are going to be one of the keys to unlock successful and vibrant town centres. Should the Welsh Government think more locally and rebuild our town-centre communities into something that embraces diversification and experience and successfully meshes new mixed uses into the existing retail and town centre context? Regeneration will require a more co-operative relationship between governance, landlords and tenants, and a whole new commercial development model, where funding institutions will have to accept and engage with the new reality. What is the Welsh Government doing to facilitate these new interactions?
One of the key enablers to town-centre regeneration is, of course, connectivity. People not only have to have a desire to go to the town, but they must have an ability to get there. Unfortunately, bus services—a crucial factor in connectivity—rather than growing, even discarding COVID, are contracting. Again, if town centres are to be successful, they must be accessible as well as having the diversity, the services and other things that they offer. What is the Welsh Government doing to make sure that bus companies keep vital routes open to our town centres?
And one last point, Deputy Minister: high-street banks—which, of course, is now becoming a misnomer—must be made accountable, because they have abandoned those businesses that once made them wealthy and profitable. What is the Welsh Government doing to remind banks of their social responsibilities in supporting town centres?

Hannah Blythyn AC: The Member raises the need for diversification, and he's absolutely right—there is no one-size-fits-all solution to actually reinvigorating and regeneratingour town centres. Whilst retail remains important, our towns can't survive on a retail offer alone. So, as I said in the statement, it's about shopping, it's about living, it's about leisure and it's about work as well. We've committed in the past, and continue to do so, to increase the opportunities for town-centre living, whether that be homes above shops or creating houses within or just on the edge of town centres, as a way not only of increasing footfall but actually giving people that access to those facilities on their doorstep as well. I think, as we move forward, we will see, with the change in working patterns as a consequence of the coronavirus pandemic, the need to actually look not just at co-working hubs, but around developing premises for people to be able to live and work within town-centre locations.
The Member talked about the need to—the connectivity for our towns as well, and that's connectivity not just in, as we talked about before, digital, but actually being able to physically get into our town centres. And I'm pleased there's work going on right across the country, and particularly in Pontypridd, about actually how we better connect, in the first instance, the train station with the centre of the town, when you leave the station, but, clearly, buses are key to the vast majority of people across Wales, my constituents included. That's why I'm working very closely with my colleagues the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales, and the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, to ensure that we better connect our communities to help support our town centres not only to survive but to thrive, and enable more people to access them in a way that actually works for them but also, of course, could bring those broader environmental benefits as well.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank you, Deputy Minister, for the town centre funds that the Welsh Government has allocated in recent weeks? But one issue that I've been seeking further clarification on is the use of these funds in smaller centres outside of the main town centre of Merthyr Tydfil, in my constituency. For example, local centres like Rhymney, Merthyr Vale, Quaker's Yard, Cefn Coed and Dowlais—they're all communities in their own right, with high streets, shops, restaurants, accommodation, pubs and cafes, yet not apparently qualifying for support as they don't meet the narrow town-centre criteria or definition required for receipt of funding. So, could you tell me what flexibility local authorities have to use these funds for businesses, empty properties, environmental schemes and the like, not based within the definition of that main town centre, as it was my understanding that the additional money from the Valleys taskforce was meant to help plug that gap?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Dawn Bowden for her questions. She's right to raise the investment that is going into Merthyr Tydfil, and will continue to do, and also the importance of those communities that serve—the smaller communities that are vital to the people who live in and around them as well. In terms of actually who qualifies for it and how that money is allocated, in terms of the town-centre prioritisation, traditionally decisions have been made on a regional basis by the local authorities, but what we have done with the town-centre adaptation grant is make sure that it is available to any town prioritised by the relevant local authority. Welsh Government did consult the local authorities on the scheme and responded to the request that there should be the flexibility to broaden the support to any towns.
The funding comes from our transforming towns programme, so, in line with that, our funding is squarely aimed at town centres, as confirmed in the grant guidance, but it's for the local authorities themselves to define what constitutes the town centre. But, clearly, I'm more than happy to, as we take forward this work in terms of investing in those smaller towns throughout Wales—. And if the Member has specific queries or issues she wants to raise with me, then I would very much invite her to put that in writing to me.

Alun Davies AC: We've all been familiar, particularly some of us representing the south Wales Valleys, with the challenges facing town centres over many years. We've seen not only online trading having an impact in eroding the viability of many retail offers, but we've also seen the growth of cities taking away the opportunities for smaller towns to compete. But the pandemic, in the way that it's worked, of course, has created a real crisis in cities as well, and has created a crisis where there may well be new opportunities now for towns that didn't exist six months ago,and I'm interested as to what the Welsh Government is doing in order to stimulate the creativity and the ambition for towns and town centres. If I look at the towns in my constituency, whether it's Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Brynmawr or Abertillery, as well as the smaller communities that Dawn Bowden has already described, I'm not seeing the level of support from the local authority that I would want to see. I've met and discussed the situation facing our town centres with local government, and I'm disappointed in the response that I'm seeing from them. But I'm not seeing much creativity, quite frankly, from Welsh Government either, and I'm quite disappointed with the approach that Welsh Government is taking at the moment, because we have a tremendous opportunity here to lead thinking, to lead creativity, to change our futures, and to shape these places that are at the heart of all of our different communities. This is an opportunity, I think, for Welsh Government to demonstrate what the Government can do that local government isn't able to do at the moment, and that—

David Melding AC: Thank you, Alun. We are running out of time. Minister.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm afraid I have to start by saying that I understand the frustration when it comes to the situation with their towns within their local area, but I absolutely reject the Member's assertion that the Welsh Government is not being ambitious in this area. I'm absolutely committed to driving creativity, to working with the town centre action group to take action in our communities across Wales. But I also recognise that Welsh Government doesn't have all the answers or all the ideas. I would encourage Members to come forward to work with us on those ideas and suggestions from communities within your constituencies to see how we can manage to shape and reinvigorate our town centres as we move forward.
In terms of the role for local authorities, again, as I said to Dawn Bowden, I would obviously encourage you to continue that dialogue. If there are specific issues you wish to raise, then please do so in writing to me. But one of the things I am keen to do, as I mentioned in the statement, is actually how we better enable communities to be part of that process because I really genuinely think that for something to succeed in the longer term, then communities need to have a say in shaping their own towns and their own centres where they live and work. One of the means, I think, to do that is to actually work a lot closer, and we have done this with the town centre adaptation fund to encourage town and community councils to be part of that process as well. I would welcome other means of looking at how we can be bring the communities on board to actually shape that in the future as we drive this forward, because it is absolutely right; we have an opportunity here now to actually make sure that our towns are able to not just survive during the pandemic, but to thrive post it.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. I'm particularly interested in the detail of the empty properties aspect. I'd like some more detail on that. I know that local authorities are able to apply for that, but could you give us a bit more information about any criteria associated with it? So, for example, is it just for retail or could it be for mixed use such as housing? Because I particularly think that smaller housing units within the town centre are a really good way to revitalise them in the long term.
My second and final question is around the ministerial town centre action group that you are setting up. I very much welcome this, particularly the inclusion of not just politicians and officials, but people who have actual real-life experience of town centres, whether that be businesses or town centre management, et cetera. So, again, I'm looking for a little more information on that, really, just with regard to who is sitting on that group and their experience, their expertise and whether, crucially, they represent the diverse nature of Wales geographically and culturally. Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Vikki Howells for her question and her interest? I know she's very passionate about this agenda and this area in serving her constituents. In terms of the empty properties, I guess there are two elements and I'm not specifically clear which one the Member has referred to, so I'll do my best to try and address both. One is whether it's for mixed use or just for retail, well, actually, in terms of the loans and support for local authorities, then that is for mixed use—it's not specifically addressed to retail—and we've seen numerous really innovative projects happening across Wales, where empty properties have been converted to create really lovely decent homes for people within town centres, which not only creates these new homes but adds to, hopefully, increasing the vibrancy of those towns as well.
In addition to that, we also have the empty property enforcement fund, which is one of the funds I announced back in January, and we've added further support to that. We have brought in an industry expert to help support local authorities in terms of how they take forward that enforcement work, because what we found previously, perhaps, with the impact of austerity and not necessarily having that expertise to actually take that forward, and to actually support local authorities to have the confidence to press ahead with that. Despite the pandemic, we have been working closely with local authorities for them to identify at least about three properties per local authority. We could probably guess at the ones that our postbags are often full about, or, you know, if you're on the street, people are complaining that it's been there for years and why aren't we doing something with it. It's obviously often been very difficult, for numerous reasons, for local authorities to address that and take it forward. So, there is a movement forward, but unfortunately at this point I'm not able to give the detail on some of them—the specifics—because of commercial confidentiality, but I can assure the Member and other Members that as soon as we are able to share that information I most certainly will do so with Members.
In terms of the town centre action group, it's already established. We're on to our third meeting now and, like I said, I've been impressing on members that I want the emphasis on the action from that. There was a diverse range of stakeholders involved with that, and it's not just confined to those members of the group. We've had people coming from a diverse range of areas to offer their insight and ideas to help us shape our action from that group. Additionally, as I said in the statement, it is underpinned by regional action groups. The regional action groups are actually bringing forward those issues on the ground to make sure they're part of the action we take, perhaps, on a national level across Wales. And there are a number of themes coming out of that, whether that be things such as—. We've talked about how we offer a vision of what some of these empty properties or places could be used for. So, perhaps creating the opportunity for what we'd call 'meanwhile spaces'—we offer that vision. We're looking at could every town in the future be a market town, and also for the work around community engagement. So, I'd be more than happy to share with Members more details about the action group, both its membership and its work as it goes forward.

David Melding AC: And for the concluding question, once again, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, acting Llywydd. Minister, Pontypridd is one of those classic examples of a town that was regenerating with Welsh Government and local council support: the new buildings; Transport for Wales being based there; the new bridge over, connecting with Ynysangharad Park; and the bingo hall, which has been acquired now by RCT to be developed. Of course, then we had the flooding. And then as we recovered from the flooding, we had COVID. So, it has been a very, very difficult time for a town that was really on the cusp of regeneration.
Now, we're getting back to looking at that again. There are two aspects that I'd really like your comments on. The first one is that change in habits: people cooking more fresh food, et cetera, during COVID period. There's a fantastic market in Pontypridd. What can we do to actually specifically support those venues, those businesses that are providing fresh, local produce to our community? Because I think there's an opportunity to really regenerate interest.
And the other one is that our towns should become centres of culture as well. In Pontypridd, we have Clwb y Bont, which is a Welsh language centre, very badly affected by flooding, but real opportunities to develop the arts, music, culture, Welsh language venues and so on, and too many of our grants are in silos. I think we have to start connecting these together to actually provide a broad vision for a town: cultural produce, natural produce, and also the regeneration of businesses and offices and so on. What sort of support is there for that, and what additional support could be given to organisations like Pontypridd business improvement district in the town, who've done so much to pull it together, but with additional resources could really make an even greater impact than they are at the moment?

Hannah Blythyn AC: If I respond to the points around Pontypridd BID and the role that they played in significantly driving forward the regeneration of Pontypridd town centre. We've talked previously about the importance of having that literal buy-in on the ground from people that live and work there to ensure the success of any regeneration project for a town or a community. We're committed to continue to support BIDs as a vehicle for driving that change or ways in which we can empower local business forums and community organisations. As well, we have provided support for BIDs to get through the COVID period, recognising the challenges they may face, and I'm happy to explore that work further with BIDs where they are taking forward really good work and are driving forward change in their communities.
The Member raises the various challenges that Pontypridd hasfaced over the past year, the regeneration that was really taking hold and then the challenges faced by both the flooding and now the pandemic, but I think there's absolutely huge potential there in Pontypridd given the investment that's already gone in and continues to go in.
On the kind of buying local and shopping local and the link to where your food comes from and fresh food, I think one of things I've started seeing now within Government is actually—as Mick said—how we better join that up. So by buying local, if you're buying from a market you're probably more likely to not use excess packaging as well, and you see people thinking about the resources we consume, not just within our food but also the waste that we can produce as well. I think we've seen more opportunities coming forward both within our direct transforming towns funding, but also things like our circular economy fund, with organisations, public bodies and businesses coming forward in terms of actually how they can reduce packaging as part of that offer, part of the town centre offer that is different, that gives them that draw to bring people in and increase footfall.
I think the Member absolutely makes the point, actually, we've seen—and I've seen it myself in my own constituency—almost the comeback of the market and the rise in popularity of the market again. Well, that's because people feel safer shopping outdoors at the moment in the current circumstances, but also actually seeing the quality of the product and knowing that they're supporting the local community. So, much of what we've seen through some of the adaptation funding and the transforming towns funding, that can be facilitated through local authorities to support things such as local market initiatives moving forward. I know that it's one of the areas that the action groups have already identified as a key area to take forward if we can drive the idea and the action of every town in Wales as a market town.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister.

9. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Update on Maternity Services and Governance Improvements at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board

David Melding AC: Item 9, the statement on maternity services in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board, is postponed until 13 October.

10. Legislative Consent Motion on the Fisheries Bill

David Melding AC: Item 10, the legislative consent motionon the Fisheries Bill, is postponed until 6 October.

11. Legislative Consent Motion on the Agriculture Bill

David Melding AC: Item 11 is the legislative consent motion on the Agriculture Bill. I call the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to move the motion. Lesley Griffiths.

Motion NDM7400 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Agriculture Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to explain the background to this legislative consent motion. First introduced to the UK Parliament on 16 January 2020, the Agriculture Bill makes provision with regard to devolved matters. Provisions relating to Wales are set out in Schedule 5 to the Bill, but also appear throughout the Bill. I recommend Members of the Senedd support a legislative consent motion for the Agriculture Bill.
In deciding whether to recommend legislative consent for this Bill, I have taken into consideration the helpful comments raised by the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee during their scrutiny. The Agriculture Bill contains provisions enabling the Welsh Ministers to continue to provide financial support to the Welsh agricultural sector through a domestic version of the common agricultural policy's basic payment scheme and rural development payment scheme. I believe it is appropriate for these provisions to be included in the UK Agriculture Bill as the Welsh Ministers will be able to provide the agricultural sector with much needed stability and continuity.
We intend that the powers will be used during transition to a new system of agricultural support, which we propose will be designed around sustainable land management principles. On 31 July, I launched the 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' proposals to continue and simplify agricultural support for farmers and the rural economy consultation. The consultation outlines proposals on how the continuity provisions allowing the delivery of a new domestic basic payment scheme and a rural development payment scheme may be used by Welsh Ministers. It sets out a number of small but impactful changes to their operation during the 2021 scheme year. Consultation on these proposals will conclude on 23 October.
The Agriculture Bill also contains other provisions for ensuring the effective operation of agricultural sectors across the UK. These include provisions for agricultural tenancy reform, the redistribution of the red meat levy, fair dealing and producer organisations, market intervention and marketing standards, data collection and sharing, and the identification and traceability of livestock, fertilisers and organics. The legislative consent motions that set out these provisions have been previously subject to Senedd scrutiny.
The Agriculture Bill provides the Secretary of State with regulation-making provisions to ensure the UK's compliance with the World Trade Organization agreement on agriculture following the UK's departure from the European Union. As I have previously outlined to the Senedd, these are fairly complex provisions over which the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee raised concerns during its scrutiny. I have given careful consideration to these provisions, and the committee's recommendation on them in their report of May 2020. I remain satisfied with the bilateral agreement made between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on the use of these powers. The agreement provides strong mechanisms for Welsh Ministers to express their views and have those views taken into account by Parliament and by the UK Government when making and using regulations in relation to the UK's dealings with the WTO.
In recommendation 16 of their report, the committee sought clarity on whether I believed the Bill should include safeguards to ensure that marketing standards in Wales are not undercut by imports in any future trade arrangements. I wrote to the Secretary of State on 12 June to set out the Welsh Government's position on animal health and welfare and key sanitary and phytosanitary matters in respect of a future trade agreement. Food safety, along with animal health and welfare, are devolved matters, and the Welsh Government's policy is clear: that high food safety, animal welfare, and environmental standards must be maintained in Wales. Although UK Ministers continue to insist they are determined to maintain the current high standards of food safety and animal welfare, they are reluctant to find appropriate legal drafting that would enable them to put such assurances into statute. As a Government, we regret this.
In recommending legislative consent for the Bill, we are acknowledging it is not perfect and not as we would have drafted it. However, the Bill as amended is, on balance, acceptable. I want to assure the Chamber that we intend to vigorously oppose clauses in the internal market Bill that would enable this or any Government in Westminster to fire the starting gun on a race to the bottom of food safety and animal welfare standards.
Over the next few years, we propose the Welsh agricultural sector will transition to a new system of agricultural support. Our proposals are clear: that it is important to transition to such a system sooner rather than later, to address the lack of economic and environmental resilience in the sector, and in order to protect the reputation of the industry. There has been a long passage of time since the original Agriculture Bill was introduced to the UK Parliament in September 2018. Taking this into account, alongside concerns raised by the Senedd during scrutiny, I concluded it was not appropriate to include the new financial assistance powers originally provided for in this Bill. Instead, it is my intention to make appropriate provisions in an agriculture (Wales) Bill. We intend that this Wales Bill will give Welsh Ministers provisions to design and deliver a bespoke system of support for Welsh agriculture, rural industries and communities.
During scrutiny, Senedd committees expressed concerns around the absence of a time-limiting clause in the original Agriculture Bill. To address these concerns, I instructed the UK Government to include a sunset clause on the face of the Bill. This now forms part of the Bill at clause 51, and assures the expiry of provisions in Schedule 5, along with a small number of related provisions, at the end of 2024 in accordance with that provision. By the end of this year, I intend to publish a White Paper that will set out the context for the future of Welsh farming and pave the way for the introduction of the agriculture (Wales) Bill. I move the motion to the Chamber.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Minister. I now call the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. This debate draws us one step nearer to agreeing transitional arrangements for the agricultural sector in Wales. It has been a long journey. Scrutiny of the UK Agriculture Bill has been a central plank of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee's work on Brexit. Our first report in relation to a UK Agriculture Bill was published back in January 2019. In the last 18 months, we've had the first UK Bill fall due to prorogation, and another introduced in the wake of the UK elections. We have reported on three separate occasions on a UK Agriculture Bill.
Three key issues have dominated our scrutiny of this Bill. Firstly, the use of the consent procedure to legislate on significant policy matters in devolved areas. As a committee, we've always recognised that legislation was necessary to continue to provide financial support to the agriculture sector immediately after Brexit—the last thing anybody would want is to turn the money off. But we have always said that the most appropriate way to legislate on a subject as significant as the long-term future of agriculture in Wales is a Welsh Bill. We have been told again and again by the Welsh Government that this was impossible because of a lack of time.
We have witnessed first-hand the limitations of the consent procedure. There is, more often than not, limited consultation with Welsh stakeholders, limited scrutiny of Welsh provisions—certainly nothing like the Senedd Bill process. We have reported on provisions that have been inserted, only to be taken out at subsequent amending stages. In some cases, whole Schedules have been removed. Even today, the Senedd is being asked to give its consent while the Bill is still in the amending stage in Parliament.
Second, there's been a worrying trend of LCMs including provisions that confer considerable powers on Welsh Ministers while placing very few duties upon them. We have consistently argued that this imbalance will severely limit the Senedd's ability to scrutinise the Welsh Government's support for agriculture at a time when effective scrutiny is vital.
Third, the Welsh and UK Governments have struggled to develop effective working relationships to deal with the challenge of Brexit. This is something that is understandable; this is something that is new to us all. The structures and frameworks that are necessary to work collaboratively have not been needed before now. We've been consistent in saying that leaving the EU will necessitate new inter-governmental relationships at a UK level. As Governments focus on developing these new inter-governmental relationships, the question for Parliaments in the four constituent nations in the UK is where we sit in this new landscape. Will we simply rubber-stamp consent motions so that Parliament can legislate on our behalf? Will we agree that Parliament can confer powers on Welsh Ministers, bypassing the Senedd altogether? These are key questions.
But moving on and focusing on the positives, the Minister and officials have engaged constructively and positively with the committee throughout this process. In our three reports, we have made many recommendations, and the Minister responded constructively. We've seen the Minister take action as a result of these recommendations. The Welsh provisions in the Bill look very different today than at the start of this process. The Minister has secured the removal of what was then Schedule 3, which gave significant long-term legislative powers to Welsh Ministers. What remains are largely transitional powers that will be supplanted by a future Welsh Bill.
The Minister has committed to publishing a White Paper on agriculture before the end of this Senedd, with the intention of bringing forward a Welsh Bill in the next Senedd. The question for the Senedd is whether the provisions are appropriate to facilitate a smooth transition to any new system of support for agriculture after the UK leaves the EU. The committee has identified many matters of detail in the Bill that were unsatisfactory—some have been addressed, some remain. But I very much welcome that the future of agriculture policy will be determined in Wales by the Senedd, in the form of a Welsh Bill, subject to amendments tabled from Members across this Senedd, and on which Welsh farmers and stakeholders will be consulted extensively.

David Melding AC: Thank you. I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, acting Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee started considering a UK Agriculture Bill exactly two years ago in September 2018, and Members will know that the first version of the UK Government's Bill fell in 2019, when the UK Parliament was dissolved ahead of the UK general election. We had already produced two strongly worded reports on that version of that Bill in January and June 2019. The present UK Government reintroduced the Agriculture Bill in mid January this year, and we have since seen the Welsh Government bring forward four legislative consent memoranda—No. 3 was laid last Friday, and No. 4 was laid yesterday afternoon, meaning neither have been scrutinised by any Senedd committee. We have, however, again, produced two reports on the No. 1 and No. 2 legislative consent memoranda with significant conclusions and recommendations.
The UK Agriculture Bill is an important piece of law, and while it is arising as a result of the UK's exit from the EU, it is providing significant powers to the Welsh Ministers in an area of policy that has been devolved to the Senedd for over 20 years. In our January 2019 report, we noted our disappointment that the Minister had appeared tosuggest that the LCM process provides Senedd Members with adequate opportunities for the scrutiny of an important area of devolved policy.

Mick Antoniw AC: It is important to be clear on this point. The scrutiny of an LCM does not give Senedd Members the same rights or opportunities for scrutiny when compared with a Welsh Bill laid before this Senedd. The fact that the Welsh Government laid further supplementary LCMs on Friday and yesterday afternoon that are relevant to today's debate provides a clear example of the limitations placed on scrutiny during the legislative consent process.
The Minister also wrote to our committee yesterday afternoon in relation to the fourth LCM, and she reiterated the importance of the Bill. It is, therefore, disappointing that the Minister's letter also advises that the Welsh Government is still analysing further amendments made at the House of Lords Report Stage, even with this motion being considered today.
There has been extremely limited time made available to review the fourth LCM, but it would appear that the Bill now provides Welsh Ministers with further powers; it would appear that the Secretary of State has taken an additional concurrent power to make regulations in a devolved area. Proper scrutiny would have allowed us to investigate with the Minister the reasoning for these last-minute changes. Given the importance of the Bill for Welsh farming, this situation is unsatisfactory.
I'd like to move on to the matter of a Welsh Bill. We have been concerned, as has Mike Hedges and his committee in their report, that the Welsh Government has not introduced its own Bill for scrutiny in the Senedd. The Minister told us and the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on many occasions that there was insufficient time for such a Bill. However, two years have passed since the original UK Agriculture Bill was introduced to the UK Parliament. We acknowledge that hindsight is very easy and, perhaps, unforgiving, but we should reflect on whether we would have been in a better position if a Welsh Bill had been pursued from the outset.
We do acknowledge that, following concerns we expressed about the legislative approach adopted, a sunset clause has been included in the Bill and powers to permit the Welsh Ministers to operate or transition to new schemes have been removed. Our January 2019 report also highlighted a general concern with the delegated powers contained within the original Bill. It is disappointing that information we requested about delegated powers in our report published in May of this year was not forthcoming in the second LCM laid in June, and that we've had to wait until the third LCM, laid last Friday, for a list of the provisions in the Bill thatcontain powers for Welsh Ministers to make subordinate legislation. However, I note that the justification for taking each power was not included, as requested.
Moving on to another important issue, Members are aware of the disagreement between the Welsh and UK Governments over the WTO—the World Trade Organization—provisions in the Bill, and whether consent should have been requested. During our scrutiny of the original version of the Bill, the Minister told us that clause 26, as it was then, was a red-line issue for the Welsh Government. However, the Minister also told us that the issue may be resolved by means of an inter-governmental agreement. Now, we recognise that such agreements are made between Governments. However, entering into them as a means of resolving issues within a UK Bill that requires the Senedd's consent, and then not making that agreement publicly available in a timely manner, minimises the ability of the Senedd and its committees to fully scrutinise the implications of that UK Bill for Welsh communities.
Our reports on the LCMs for the original Bill, and our first report published in May on the current Bill, detailed our concerns with the use of the bilateral agreement related to what are now clauses 40 to 42 in the current Bill. In our July report on the second LCM, we noted that the UK Government now considers that the Senedd's consent is required for these clauses. Our July report made three corresponding recommendations. We asked the Minister to provide detailed information on the UK Government's revised position; we also asked the Minister to provide us with the detail of the agreement reached with the Secretary of State on the exercise of the regulation-making powers in those clauses. The Minister wrote to us on 11 September. However, the response does not provide the clear, detailed information that we requested.
During our consideration of the first LCM for the original version of the Bill, the Minister suggested that the UK Agriculture Bill supports devolution, a view that we did not and we do not share. Today we are debating whether or not to permit the UK Parliament to legislate on Wales's behalf in a very crucial area of policy. Our committees have also undertaken scrutiny of LCMs for the UK fisheries, environment and trade Bills. In each of our reports on these important Bills, we have highlighted the same or similar concerns. While we welcome the steps the Welsh Government has taken to address some of our concerns within the UK Agriculture Bill, giving consent to another Parliament to legislate on these important matters is a difficult decision and one that should certainly not be taken lightly. Thank you, acting Llywydd.

David Melding AC: I now call Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The importance of this Agriculture Bill cannot be overstated. It includes measures to enable the continuity of existing agricultural support and to ensure the effective functioning of the sector. There are many positives, such as the red meat levy, and in particular Schedule 5, which not only enables Welsh Ministers to continue direct payments in Wales under the BPS after 2020 but also helps to simplify and improve the scheme.
Additionally, Schedule 5, Part 2 enables Welsh Ministers to make a declaration of intervention should there be exceptional market conditions where incomes of agricultural producers in Wales are being or are likely to be adversely affected. In relation to this, the FUW highlighted that respective Governments in the UK may take a different view on what constitutes an exceptional condition. As such, I welcome the fact that, when such measures are being considered, the four administrations of the UK will consult each other through the UK agricultural market monitoring group.
Co-operation with the agricultural sector and acting on their concerns is essential. Therefore, I would like to place on record my delight at the Minister's acceptance of recommendation 2 in the CCERA committee report on the supplementary LCM. The duty to report to Parliament on UK food security is vitally important also. This is much needed because we are now only 61 per cent self-sufficient in temperate foodstuffs.
Like the Minister, I welcome the UK Government amendment to increase the reporting frequency from every five to three years. Concerns were raised in relation to clauses 32, identification and traceability of animals, and 37, regulation of organic products. In fact, our committee noted that they were not in a position to recommend to the Senedd that it gives consent to the provisions of the Bill due to outstanding Welsh Government concerns. According to the ministerial responses to the Chairs of the CCERA committee and LJC committee, Government amendments were agreed at Committee Stage and the Minister regards this as a satisfactory resolution to the outstanding concerns. I agree and welcome the relevant Government amendments noted in memorandum No. 3.
The Minister also made an important point in her letter to the Chair of LJC committee in relation to clauses 40 to 42. The bilateral agreement between the Welsh and UK Governments of March 2019 does require the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers before making regulations using powers conferred under those clauses. I am assured by the Minister's comment that the agreement also sets out a robust and transparent mechanism for involving Welsh Ministers in the operation of the regulations.
In relation to Schedule 3 and agricultural tenancies, FUW and CLA Cymru indicated that there is scope for a separate Welsh Bill. I agree also with NFU Cymru that the Welsh Government should not move forward with the implementation of new policies to replace the CAP until the impacts on the tenanted sector are properly understood. Indeed, the sector accounts for 30 per cent of our farmed land in Wales. We should all be heartened by the Minister's response to recommendation 20 that reform of agricultural tenancy policy in Wales will be considered as part of the development of the agriculture (Wales) White Paper.
I note the comments in the CCERA committee report on the LCM that stakeholders have called for the Bill to include safeguards to ensure that food standards are not undercut by imports in trade agreements.The UK Government has repeatedly made it clear that it will not compromise on the UK's high standards. And the Secretary of State for International Trade has indeed set up the Trade and Agriculture Commission to advise Ministers on the UK's approach to post-Brexit trade agreements. I welcome this commission, but the Welsh Government itself has a role to play in championing our Welsh produce too. For example, we need a clear and explicit target as to when the shelf life of Welsh lamb will be improved, so that it can better compete with New Zealand on the global stage; the development and implementation of a local food charter to maximise the level of Welsh produce being procured; and backing to the Welsh Conservatives' Welsh wool pledge.
The Welsh Conservatives will be voting in favour of giving consent, because to do so is a positive step towards stability and a stronger future for our Welsh farming. However, I do wish to clarify that we do so on the basis that should the non-Government amendments remain in the Bill, a further debate will be tabled, as promised in the letter that you issued, Minister, to us yesterday. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm interested to hear that Janet Finch-Saunders says that the Conservatives back food safety, but unfortunately, to date, they have resisted putting explicit clauses on food safety into the Agriculture Bill. and that is a cause of concern.
Now, the House of Lords has very robustly put an amendment into the Bill last week requiring all food products imported under future trade deals to meet or exceed domestic standards of food safety, labelling and animal welfare standards. The key is, though, what is going to happen to that clause when it goes back to the House of Commons, and that is why I share Mick Antoniw's and Mike Hedges's reservations about passing this LCM when we don't yet know what the final shape of the Bill is going to be.
There was also a second amendment that was very important, which was around ensuring the ban on the use of pesticides near homes and public buildings like schools and hospitals. That seems to me an incredibly important public health measure. So, I really would like to hear from the Government what safeguards there are for us to resist chlorinated chicken and all its ghastly works if the UK Government throws out these two very important clauses inserted by the House of Lords when it comes back to the House of Commons later this week. Does it give us another opportunity to say we now withhold our agreement? Can you write to the agriculture Minister in the UK Government and say that we give our consent as long as these clauses stay in, or what is the situation? Because, as others have said, we really, really need our own agriculture Bill if we're not going to be short-changing our farmers and our public about the very important issue of food standards.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I do think that this Bill does highlight everything that is wrong about the process of legislative consent and the constitutional settlement, as it stands. We are considering the LCM, as we've heard, on Bill that is still being amended. We've had four Government LCMs, including the third last Friday and the latest yesterday morning. Amendments have been accepted, and Members will support them, and these issues are sure to be withdrawn when it goes back to the Commons. And then those Members, as we've heard, will want to change their minds.
So, although there is so much wrong with this Bill, one does feel that our hands are tied, because, of course, without consenting to this Bill, then Welsh Ministers wouldn't have the powers to directly support Welsh farmers through basic payments. So, what kind of choice does that give us? We have the option of either giving consent to legislation, which, in part, in my view, is damaging to the sector but at least protects our ability to provide grants, or to reject consent in the hope that we can defend the sector from some of the threats that I see in the Bill, but, through doing that, lose the ability to support the sector through payments. So, it's not much of a choice at all. And the greatest irony here—and nobody has said this so far—the truth is, whatever we decide, the UK Government, which is also operating, in this context, as the English Government, will do what they choose in any case. That's the truth of the matter.
But in terms of some of the specifics, of course I welcome the sunset clause that we've heard mention of; it's something that we called for in order to ensure that there will be a Welsh agriculture Bill and that Ministers don't continue to use the additional powers forever and a day. I'm also pleased that arrangements are being put in place in order to ensure fairer sharing out of the red meat levy, and I'm pleased that the confusion over the possibility that AHDB would undertake matters that Hybu Cig Cymru and EIDCymru are already responsible for will be tidied up, and that that, of course, is reliant on the need for ministerial consent in Wales.
But, essentially, that is one of the great weaknesses I see here, namely the failure of this Bill to put in place inter-governmental arrangements that are clear and robust, not only in terms of policy and ensuring that there is a robust framework in place that facilitates the internal market of the UK on the one hand, whilst allowing diversion of policy across the devolved administrations and Parliaments, but also the arrangements as to how financial resources are fairly distributed among the UK Governments—how we can ensure that every devolved administration complies with international obligations, as well as ensuring arrangements to resolve disputes. And I fear that the arrangements put in place, or the informal agreement, perhaps, between the UK Government and the Welsh Government is entirely inadequate. I don't see the Welsh Government as an equal partner, as it should be in those negotiations, because the UK Government, at the end of the day, will be able to do as it chooses, whatever we say.
There is much that isn't included in the Bill, which I would like to have seen included; there is a great deal that I would like to change, which is in the Bill, but, of course, we don't have the opportunity to do that. And at the end of the day, the important thing is that we have the powers in order to ensure that the Welsh Parliament and the Welsh Government is in a position to provide direct support to the agricultural sector in Wales. But I have to say that I've never felt as downhearted in voting in favour of a motion in this Senedd in the past.

David Melding AC: And the Minister to reply.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much, Chair. I'd like to thank Members for their contributions during this debate. I think I said in my opening remarks that, certainly, if we had been drafting it, we wouldn't have drafted it in this way, but I do want to reiterate the point that we very much would have preferred to have brought forward our own agriculture Bill, a bespoke Bill, for the agricultural sector here in Wales. And I am committed to bringing forward a draft White Paper before the end of this calendar year. Even with all the difficult times at the moment with the COVID-19 pandemic, I assure Members that the draft White Paper is on target to be published before the end of this year.
This Bill—you know, several Members pointed out that it's been a long time coming. We had the first Bill back two years ago, in September 2018, and obviously that fell when the UK Government called a general election last year. So, I think it's right to point out that this is several reiterations. But I have worked very closely with the Secretary of State, and officials have worked very closely also.
I'd like to thank both Chairs of the committees—Mike Hedges and Mick Antoniw—for their comments. And I think hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I do wish we had been able to find the time in the legislative programme to bring forward our Bill, as I said. But we have to look at this Bill, because the provisions relating to Wales will enable us to provide the agricultural sector with vital stability and continuity as we transition out of the European Union. It is an incredibly unsettling time for the agricultural sector, but this will provide some of that stability.
Several Members mentioned the red lines when I attended committee, and you'll be aware that the WTO was certainly one area that was a very clear red line for me, because we had made very clear to the UK Government we did not accept the WTO clause was wholly reserved. But we have now this bilateral agreement between the Welsh and UK Governments, and that's guided by the principles that are set out in the inter-governmental agreement, so it does require the UK Government to consult the devolved administrations and to seek to proceed by agreement before bringing forward any regulations. So, I wanted to make that point again, Chair, to reassure Members.
As Llyr Huws Gruffydd pointed out, we have certainly taken the recommendations on board. There were many, many helpful comments from committees, and the sunset clause is absolutely a point in case, and that has been brought forward at my request.
Janet Finch-Saunders, I have always been a champion for Welsh produce and the Welsh agricultural sector since I've been in this portfolio. It's part of the make-up of our wonderful agricultural sector. I think there is more we can do around procurement, I'd be the first to admit that, and I will certainly take that forward. And, again, around tenancy, you're quite right—a significant number of our farmers in Wales are tenants, and it's very important that we had our consultation around that and, clearly, also, when we'll be bringing our Bill forward, I want to do more to support the tenant farmers we have.
I also wanted to say, about the LCM process, I don't disagree that it's not a difficult process. We're required to lay an LCM in the Senedd normally no later than two weeks after amendments are tabled or agreed, but, due to the advanced stage of the Bill and, therefore, the lack of time available for normal Senedd scrutiny, that's why I wrote to the committees and Members of the Senedd to outline the amendments that have been made. Finally, Chair, I would like to reassure Members that, if the Bill looks very different, I will, of course, come back for further scrutiny from the Senedd.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Minister. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

David Melding AC: There will now be a short break to allow for the changeover in the Chamber.

Plenary was suspended at 17:47.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:52, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

12. The Representation of the People (Electoral Register Publication Date) (Wales) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020

We will recommence with item 12 on our agenda, the Representation of the People (Electoral Register Publication Date) (Wales) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020. I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move the motion. The Minister—Julie James.

Motion NDM7398 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Representation of the People (Electoral Register Publication Date) (Wales) (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020 are made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 14July 2020.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. The electoral canvass is carried out every year. Whilst registration is a year-round process, the canvass gives the opportunity for electoral registration officers to ensure the accuracy of the register. Traditionally, the canvass begins on 1 July each year, and can take up to five months to complete. It culminates in the publication of the revised electoral register on 1 December.
The date for the publication of the register is set out in legislation. The regulations we are debating here today would allow electoral registration officers to publish the 2020 electoral register at a later date if necessary, up to 1 February 2021. This change only applies to the publication of the 2020 electoral register. This does not mean that registers may only be published on 1 February 2021. Electoral registration officers may choose to publish on 1 December as usual, or any other date up to and including 1 February 2021.
The extension to the publication date is considered essential in the current circumstances brought about by the COVID-19 pandemic. There should be some flexibility for electoral registration officers to carry out the canvass in a way that takes into consideration public health requirements. Flexibility can be provided by moving the final date by which the 2020 electoral register must be published.
The COVID-19 pandemic has had a significant impact on the work of local authorities. Democratic services teams have seen their staff being redeployed to areas of need, or staff working from home. These arrangements can make it difficult to carry out normal functions, including printing, receipt of forms and phone call canvassing. While the annual canvass process has recently been modernised, elements remain paper based. The process is reliant on staff in electoral services teams sending and receiving paper correspondence. There is also a face-to-face element through door-to-door canvassing.
The social distancing arrangements currently in place introduce some uncertainty in relation to the ability of electoral registration officers to successfully canvass and register electors by December 2020. The purpose of these regulations is to recognise the impact of COVID-19 and provide flexibility to electoral registration officers by simply extending the final publication date of the 2020 revised electoral register. Diolch, Llywydd.

I have no speakers for this item. I assume the Minister does not wish to reply to her own remarks, and therefore the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object?No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

13. The Land Transaction Tax (Temporary Variation of Rates and Bands for Residential Property Transactions) (Wales) Regulations 2020

The next item is item 13, the Land Transaction Tax (Temporary Variation of Rates and Bands for Residential Property Transactions) (Wales) Regulations 2020, and I call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd to introduce the regulations. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7393 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Land Transaction Tax (Temporary Variation of Rates and Bands for Residential Property Transactions) (Wales) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 24 July 2020.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to open the debate on the Land Transaction Tax (Temporary Variation of Rates and Bands for Residential Property Transactions) (Wales) Regulations 2020. This is the first time that we are voting on changes to LTT rates since they were first introduced and first set by the Senedd in January 2018. I am grateful for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report and to the Finance Committee for giving me the opportunity to give evidence to them.
The purpose of these regulations is to make a temporary variation to LTT rates and thresholds applicable to certain residential property transactions with an effective date on or after 27 July 2020 and before 1 April 2021. On 1 April, the tax rates will revert back to those in force before 27 July this year. Of course, I continue to keep the rates under review to ensure the taxes devolved to Wales are delivering the tax regime that we want for a fair and prosperous Wales.
The regulations make a single change to the main residential rates. They remove the first band, so that tax starts to be paid on the consideration given for the property of more than £250,000, up from £180,000. Importantly, these changes, unlike in the other countries of the UK, are restricted to those paying the main residential rates only. There will be no tax reductions for investors in buy-to-let properties, furnished holiday lets or second homes. We therefore ensure that the benefits of this temporary variation are provided broadly to those purchasing homes in which to live. These changes mean that, from 27 July until 31 March next year, around 80 per cent of homebuyers in Wales will pay no tax, up from 60 per cent. And, for the 20 per cent of homebuyers who now pay tax, the amount payable is reduced by £2,450.
I have also been able to provide £30 million to fund a substantial increase in the capital investment for the next phase of the homelessness response, as part of the phase 2 homelessness plan, with the aim of achieving our goal of ending homelessness in Wales. These changes should help our recovery by providing an economic stimulus to support the housing market and the broader economy in Wales by homebuyers spending money in the economy, local authorities investing to combat homelessness, and supporting jobs and businesses, thereby fostering confidence.
The temporary rates are a balanced response by this Government. They provide tax reductions to help stimulate the economy, retain our progressive tax principles and provide funding to help some of our most vulnerable citizens. I therefore ask for the Senedd's support to confirm these temporary changes. Diolch.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. We considered these regulations at our meeting on 3 August, and we laid our report on the same day. Our report noted one merits point, under Standing Order 21.3, in respect of these regulations. We noted paragraph 3.2 of the explanatory memorandum, which highlights the use of the provisional affirmative procedure for these regulations and explains what would happen if the Senedd voted against keeping the regulations in force. The explanatory memorandum suggests that, in the event of such a vote, a person who had paid less tax during the time the regulations were in force would be deemed to have underpaid tax. However, our understanding is that the regulations would cease to have effect at the end of the day on which such a vote took place and that anything done under the regulations before then would not be affected. Therefore, if a person had paid less tax during the time that the regulations were in force, then that person would have paid the correct tax that applied at that time. Whilst our report did not request a response from the Welsh Government to this point, the Minister may wish to comment on that. Thank you, Llywydd.

The Chair of the Finance Committee. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. As this is the first time the LTT rates have been changed mid year, and given the implications for the Welsh Government’s budget and spending plans, the Finance Committee was eager to take evidence directly from the Minister, and we did so on 14 September. We were grateful to the Minister for attending at that time, and we heard that given the proximity of the Wales-England border, the temporary changes to SDLT meant that, inevitably, action would be taken in Wales. The committee notes that the change will support people looking to purchase first homes or those seeking to move up the property ladder.
However, unlike stamp duty in England, the change to the LTT tax exemption threshold in Wales will not apply to the purchase of additional properties such as buy-to-lets and second homes. This is something the Finance Committee may want to consider further during the next budget round, or as part of our inquiry into the implementation of the Wales Act 2014 and the operation of the fiscal framework that is currently being undertaken.
The medium-term outlook for the housing market is uncertain both in terms of house prices and the volume of sales. Much will depend on the performance of the wider economy, which will, in turn, be determined by how the pandemic and restrictions on activity evolve. Nevertheless, the committee was broadly content with the evidence provided by the Minister, and therefore we have no issues to report. Thank you.

Nick Ramsay AC: I thank the Minister for bringing forward these regulations today. The Welsh Conservatives will be supporting these regulations as we have been calling for some time for a land transaction tax holiday here in Wales to mirror the stamp duty holiday that was originally introduced, primarily in England, as a mechanism to energise the housing market during this time of the pandemic and lockdown.
The Minister knows from my previous questions to her about my concerns regarding the thresholds that have been decided on in Wales—£250,000 is the level up to which the tax-free rate applies. This is considerably less than the £500,000 level across the border in England. For many parts of Wales that might not be so relevant, but certainly along the border areas, and particularly in south-east Wales, I am concerned that this could cause distortions in the market. So, along with my previous questions to the finance Minister and to go along with what you said earlier, will you give that commitment that you will keep this process under review?
I'm pleased to hear that the Finance Committee does also keep the door open on looking at the second homes issue, and other property issues as well. Key to this land transaction tax change is to energise the property market, and we must make sure that that remains competitive within Wales as across the border in England.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We will support these regulations and support the fact that the Welsh Government didn't emulate the changes to stamp duty announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for England. We note that the threshold for LTT is to increase only for main residential properties. We see the value of doing this under the current circumstances as an economic stimulus. And, of course, we do understand that one of the implications of restricting the threshold to the main residence only is to not provide subsidies to those people who would want to use this as an opportunity to buy a second home. We know that there has been recently some strengthening in the feeling within communities in Wales, such as in my constituency, where there is a high percentage of second homes and holiday homes, that steps do need to be taken to prevent the loss of further housing stock to those purchasing second homes.
Plaid Cymru announced in the past few days a series of steps to tackle this, including changes to planning regulations, capping the number of second homes within any community, making it a requirement to have planning consent to turn a main residence into a second home, and so on and so forth. But we do also need to use tax incentives. We recommend raising council tax for second homes, and certainly to close the loopholes that have allowed some to opt out of paying council tax entirely. I appeal to the Government here once again to tackle that issue. But we are also calling for land transaction tax to be used in a more far-reaching way—trebling it is a step that the Government could take immediately. These regulations in truth don't go far enough, in my view and in Plaid Cymru's view. I still don't see the urgency that I would like to see from the Welsh Government on the issue of second homes and safeguarding the housing stock in our communities. But at least what we are voting for today is something that recognises the problem, but let us do far more, let us take real action, because our communities expect us to take steps to safeguard their interests.

The Minister for finance to reply to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Thank you, and thank you to those colleagues who have indicated their support for the regulations today. I will confine my remarks to the specific regulations that we're debating today. Just in response to the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, I'm very grateful for the work that the committee undertook. And I do very much accept the merit point that was raised, and in future I will ensure that the explanatory memoranda for future regulations include that point made as well. So, grateful for your work on that.
In terms of the threshold at which we set the rates, of course, we did it to recognise the different housing market that we have in Wales, where the average house price is £168,000, as compared to £254,000 across the border in England, and our average first-time buyer here in Wales pays £145,000, as compared to £213,000—although Nick Ramsay and I have, on a number of occasions, rehearsed the differences that there across Wales, and the fact that the situation in Monmouthshire is different because it's the only place in Wales that consistently has house prices that are at the very upper end of the spectrum. So, yes, obviously, I will keep the matter under review, although I do point out to colleagues that what we're voting on today is a limited measure, just for seven months, until the date at which it will end next year.
And then to the Finance Committee, as the Chair said, this is the first time that we as Members of the Senedd have used these powers to set new, albeit temporary, changes to the rates and thresholds of land transaction tax. We've used them in the best interests of the people of Wales, and I'm very, very happy to continue the discussions with the Finance Committee, and to continue to share our learning with Finance Committee, and to learn from the Finance Committee's work on this area as well. So, diolch to all colleagues.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is—[Objection.]

Okay, fine. Thank you for the objection, and we'll therefore postpone the vote until the voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

14. The Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020

The next item is item 14,the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020, and I call on the Minister for Education to move the motion—Kirsty Williams.

Motion NDM7394 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020 laid in the Table Office on 25 August 2020.

Motion moved.

Kirsty Williams AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the legislative response that we've made to the COVID-19 pandemic, using powers afforded to us by the Coronavirus Act 2020. Throughout these extraordinary times, we've worked hard to give schools and local authorities the time and the space that they need to get on with the important job of supporting the needs of all learners, right the way across Wales whilst responding to the challenging situation we find ourselves in. I remain humbled by the response of our dedicated practitioners, leaders and support staff across all of our schools and settings. However, I do recognise the significant pressure that our schools and settings are under, and continue to be under, during this time. In June, I made the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(5) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020, which amended the lists of enactments that can be disapplied by the Welsh Ministers for a specified period by notice. I then agreed for a notice to be issued, disapplying the basic curriculum and associated assessment arrangements, ahead of schools and settings reopening to more learners during the summer term. This notice applied from 24 June until 23 July.
In order to continue to support schools when they returned in September, I made the decision to make the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020. These regulations added section 43 of the Education Act 1997, section 69 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 and sections 101, 109 and 110 and 116A to 116K of the Education Act 2002 to the table of enactments in paragraph 7(6) that can be modified in a particular way by the Welsh Ministers for a specified period by notice. This allowed us to issue a notice that temporarily modified the curriculum requirements for Wales and, using existing powers in the Coronavirus Act 2020, associated assessment arrangements for schools and funded non-maintained nursery settings to a 'reasonable endeavours' basis. This temporary modification enables schools to have some flexibility in how they comply with their duties, where that flexibility is needed. It does not remove the requirement for schools to seek to fulfil their curriculum and assessment duties. Instead, it requires them to make reasonable endeavours to meet those duties. This means that if a school has taken all reasonable steps to perform a statutory duty, but if they are still unable to do so, then that duty will be treated as satisfied.
It is important to remember that these amendments have been made in the context of the Welsh Government's learning guidance, which sets out the learning priorities that remain key in all scenarios and at all stages of the pandemic. All of these actions have been completed with the help and the collaboration of our stakeholders and I commend them to the Senedd.

The Chair of the of Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Llywydd. We considered these regulations at our meeting on 14 September. Our subsequent report, laid on the same day, raised both technical and merits points and incorporated the Welsh Government response.
Our two technical reporting points both raised concerns over the clarity of the legislation for those who would be accessing it. Our first point noted that regulation 2 adds provisions of certain enactments to the list of enactments in paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020. That list runs in chronological order. However, regulation 2 adds section 43 of the Education Act 1997 to the list after the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. Our report noted that this has the potential to cause confusion for anyone searching paragraph 7(6) for a specific statutory reference. The Welsh Government response acknowledges the inconsistency but states that the entry remains effective. Whilst we do not question the effectiveness of the regulations, we would still highlight the importance of making legislation that is clear and can be easily accessed and understood by those it affects.
Secondly, we noted an incorrect footnote referencing the Welsh version of the regulations. The Welsh Government response clarified that this was due to a formatting error, which has since been corrected by the Queen's Printer during the publication process.
Our final point with regard to the regulations: a merits point noted that no formal consultation had taken place. We acknowledged the reasons given for this in the explanatory memorandum, mainly that this is in the light of the unprecedented situation created by the coronavirus pandemic and the challenging timescales within which the regulations need to be made. Diolch, Llywydd.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for your opening remarks there, and thank you to Mick Antoniw as well—I think those points were well made.
Once again, I'm assuming, Minister, that you're bringing forward these regulations to ensure that staff in schools don't fall foul of the law, and, bearing in mind that you've already said that this doesn't negate the need for school staff to do their very best in order to deliver the curriculum, I suppose my essential question would be: why do you think that they would fail to do that?
We've previously agreed, haven't we, retrospectively, to the disapplication of the curriculum for a specific period of time, because of the impossibility of delivering it at short notice, with schools closing completely, apart from the hubs, and that very sudden exposure to blended learning, which was underdeveloped in many cases and which led undeniably to an inconsistent experience for pupils. This time, though, we're being asked for a period of time, which I hope you will clarify, to allow staff to use their best endeavours to deliver the basic curriculum and national curriculum in particular rather than continue under a duty to provide it. That sounds to me—. You just said to us, I think, that the duty actually still prevails; perhaps you'd clarify that.
Obviously we all understand how difficult it's been these last six months, and I completely associate myself with your opening remarks in thanking pupils' families and staff, but we have had repeated assurances from you that the online offer, primarily Hwb, is a quality offer; that you and schools and colleges and local authorities have all got thousands of pieces of IT kit, as well as licences, out to our young people who need them; and that schools are now better placed to provide blended learning than they were six months ago. So, of course, schools will use their best endeavours to fulfil those duties, they always have, so what exactly is it that you see preventing them from fulfilling those duties now? I accept it's not easy; I think I said that. I think my biggest concern though is this: yes, we've got schools that are going to face many lockdowns of up to a fortnight, but what is preventing schools delivering that curriculum through blended learning over such a short period of time, or catching up when pupils are back?
Can you tell me, Minister, whether you'll be asking the First Minister to report on the need for these regulations every three weeks and sharing the evidence on which that assessment is made? Because so many of our other Welsh Government COVID decisions are predicated on keeping our schools open and, if they're open, they should be delivering the curriculum, even to those classes who may be sent home. So, if you could clarify some of those answers for me, I'd be very grateful.

The Minister for Education to reply to the debate. Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Llywydd. To begin with, can I thank Mick Antoniw and his committee for their feedback? Accessibility to legislation is an important part of the rule of law, and we will endeavour to ensure that, in bringing any education legislation forward, that principle is upheld. But I'm glad that the Chair recognises that the law is still correct, but obviously we will do our best to ensure that his comments are reflected in future legislation that comes before him.
With regard to the points made by Suzy Davies, which were numerous, I will absolutely clarify that the expectation is that, wherever possible, schools should deliver the national curriculum for Wales, but we have moved to a best endeavours because we recognise the significant pressure that our practitioners are under at the moment. I spent my afternoon talking to a range of headteachers who are doing tremendous work in keeping their schools open; responding to the needs of their learners; responding to the needs of parents, their communities; but doing so, often, whilst handling maybe a COVID incident in their own school, engaging with test, trace and protect teams. They remain under a huge amount of stress, managing staff absence, whether that's COVID related or non-COVID related, and finding cover for those members of staff, when sometimes it's difficult to recruit and recruit that cover into schools, even on a temporary basis. Whilst schools remain under this pressure, I do believe it is appropriate to give them and local authorities the space so that they can concentrate on delivering the guidance, as set out in our learning documents.
Now, Suzy Davies does raise a very legitimate point about the ability of schools to switch seamlessly in a way that many were unable to do at the height of the pandemic, between provision within the classroom and delivering lessons remotely. And I think that we are indeed seeing a huge step change in the ability of schools to do just that, whether that be teachers delivering lessons remotely from their own homes, because they themselves are self-isolating, or being able to deliver both synchronous and asynchronous lessons to students who are out of school.
During the month of September, already, we have seen the establishment of over 25,000 Google Classrooms. That is more Google Classrooms set up in the last month than over the last couple of academic years. It just demonstrates the readiness of our schools to move to that provision if necessary. But, even in that provision, Suzy, I'm sure you'd agree with me, that it's impossible to access a lab; it's impossible to deliver physical education easily in those types of settings. So, we do need to be able to give schools the confidence that they are not worrying about potentially breaking a law and, as I said, to give them the space to attend to the health and well-being needs of their community, the health and well-being needs of their own staff, I should say, who are working under tremendous pressure, as well as having, as I said, the implication that they should use all their best endeavours to fulfil a full curriculum.
I'm content that these regulations are necessary and that the associated statutory notices meet the required test of being appropriate and proportionate, and I believe they also offer a high degree of assurance around the curriculum and assessment arrangements the schools are expected to deliver whilst, as I said, providing that crucial flexibility to respond to additional considerations. It means that schools will need to do everything they can to reasonably fulfil their duties, but it does allow that flexibility, which I feel, at this stage of the pandemic, continues to be key. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

15. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Update on Local Coronavirus Restrictions

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services, an update on local coronavirus restrictions, and I call on the Minister to make the statement. Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Llywydd, for the opportunity to update Members today about the latest situation across Wales. The First Minister, myself and the Minister for north Wales have just come from a meeting with local authority leaders, the police, the NHS and public health experts to discuss the rise of coronavirus infections in parts of north Wales. Unfortunately, we are seeing a similar pattern of transmission in coronavirus in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire and Conwy as we have already seen in parts of south Wales. Rates remain low in Anglesey and Gwynedd at present.
After extensive discussions and taking into account the local incident management teams, it was agreed by everyone in that meeting that urgent action is needed now to control the spread of the virus in north Wales and to protect people’s health. The Welsh Government will, therefore, be introducing local restrictions—the same local restriction measures that are in place in parts of south Wales—in Wrexham, Denbighshire, Flintshire and Conwy from 6.00 p.m. on Thursday 1 October.
Llywydd, over the last few weeks, we have seen a significant rise in the number of new coronavirus cases across Wales overall. Nationally, in those areas that are not within extra local restrictions, we must remember that people are not allowed to meet socially indoors with people that they do not live with and who are not part of their extended household or bubble. If people have formed an extended household, they can meet indoors in a group of up to six people from that extended household at any one time. Under-11s are not included when counting the six, as long as they are part of that extended household. Of course, indoors includes people's homes and hospitality venues. People must not gather outdoors in groups of more than 30; face coverings are mandatory in indoor public spaces and, of course, on public transport, subject to certain exemptions and exceptions; and licensed premises must not sell alcohol after 10.00 p.m. That includes pubs and restaurants as well as off-licences, supermarkets and other retail outlets.
Whilst case numbers continue to rise nationally, we do not have immediate plans for any further national restrictions. We will, of course, act if we feel that further national restrictions are needed to help prevent the spread of coronavirus and outweigh the wider harms that such restrictions can cause. Any decisions will continue to be based upon medical and scientific evidence and advice.
We've seen spikes in case numbers across a number of local authority areas and, as a result, a large part of the population of south Wales are now living in areas with local restrictions in place to protect their health and prevent the spread of coronavirus. Areas under local restrictions at present are Caerphilly,Rhondda Cynon Taf,Blaenau Gwent,Bridgend,Merthyr Tydfil, Newport, Llanelli, Cardiff, Swansea, Neath Port Talbot, the Vale of Glamorgan and Torfaen. The local restrictions are the same in each designated area. People are not allowed to enter or leave the area without a reasonable excuse and people are not allowed to meet indoors with anyone they do not live with for the time being. This includes extended households, sometimes called a bubble; they have unfortunately had to be suspended for the time being. All licensed premises have to stop serving alcohol at 10.00 p.m. in line with national restrictions and everyone must work from home wherever possible.
To be clear, a reasonable excuse to leave or enter an area includes going to work where people cannot work from home or using public services that are not available locally. It also includes visiting family or close friends on compassionate grounds if necessary. So, of course, people who have urgent hospital appointments, for example, can leave or enter an area. For those who share parental responsibility, they can continue existing arrangements for access and contact for their child or children, including leaving or entering a local area if needed. Similarly, essential childcare arrangements can continue. That includes where this is provided by, for example, grandparents, although clearly there are increased risks with older people and we recommend that alternative care arrangements are found if possible.
As a minimum, everyone should ensure that they are regularly washing their hands and the wider guidance on managing the virus is followed. Routine visits to care homes in areas under local restrictions have been suspended by those local authorities at the present time. Visits to care homes may still take place within those areas in exceptional circumstances, such as end of life, however this should be discussed with the individual care home before travelling. Children, providing they are well, should continue to go to school. Keeping schools open remains our top priority.
This is not a regional lockdown. We have introduced a series of local restrictions in these local authority areas to respond to a specific rise in cases within each area. All of them have distinct and unique chains of transmission. The local measures have been selected to maximise the impacts on reducing coronavirus transmission and to minimise the wider harm that such restrictions can cause as we know. The measures are designed to supplement and enhance local responses from the local authority, local health boards and the police, and those are already under way.
We will keep these measures under constant review and we'll continue to hold meetings with public health experts, local authority leaders, the NHS, police and police and crime commissioners to assess the latest position in each of these areas. In Caerphilly and Newport, we're seeing real falls in case numbers and we are hopeful that we will be able to take action to relax these restrictions in these areas if those case numbers continue to fall. It is important that everyone follows the rules for where they live. We need everyone's help to bring coronavirus under control. It is only by working together that we will be able to reduce coronavirus infections, the harm that they cause and to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and together, we can keep Wales safe. Thank you, Llywydd.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Can I first of all put on record the Conservatives' thanks to all the public officials and everyone connected to trying to suppress the virus in the outbreak areas? No-one wants to be under restriction, but obviously these restrictions place a particular obligation on certain public officials and also the public at large to adhere to them, and I put my thanks on the record and that of the Welsh Conservatives to each and every one who is battling the fight to suppress the virus.
I put a series of questions to the Minister in relation to his statement, which I appreciate didn't arrive as it usually does, but I have had a brief sight of it, so I'd like to ask the Minister in the first instance: how is the decision arrived at when infection rates go over a certain threshold that the Minister responds and puts the restrictions in place? Because on Sunday, the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, was put into the bracket of restrictions on the Monday night, yet it had a lower infection rate than the counties that he's announced this evening that won't go under restriction until Thursday. Flintshire, Denbighshire and Conwy all had higher infection rates on Sunday as opposed to the Vale of Glamorgan, so I'd be interested to understand how the Government reads into those infection rates and responds accordingly.
I'd also like to try and understand, after asking him some two weeks ago, what progress is being made in trying to develop a local information campaign, so that, as in other parts of the United Kingdom, a ward-by-ward understanding of infection rates can be understood by the Government, and, where possible, the hyperlocal lockdowns rather than countywide or regionwide lockdowns are achieved. At the moment, I disagree with the Minister when he says these aren't regional lockdowns. In the south, some 2 million people are now under lockdown; I'd hazard a guess—with my understanding of the north—that this most probably affects approximately half a million people in north-east Wales. In effect, the whole of north-east Wales is now under lockdown as of Thursday night with these announcements. So, I do think that the Minister does need to try and develop a strategy where there is better use of local information to try and support hyperlocal lockdowns, as opposed to countywide lockdowns, where the information supports that.
I'd also like to hear from the Minister what action he is taking in response to the older persons' commissioner's concerns raised yesterday about visits to care homes. I understand there has been some movement in those restrictions and that guidance issued yesterday, but I think the concerns from the older persons' commissioner going forward—in particular as we go into the winter months—are worthy of movement from the Government where they can, to facilitate such visits into care homes, because of the mental well-being of the residents concerned.
I'd also like to understand from the Minister in particular what action his Government is taking in relation to student returns to many of the counties that are under lockdown. The mental well-being and health of the students, as well as those associated with universities, has to be a critical priority, and I'd like to understand what discussions have gone on between the Government and the institutions, to know that there is a comprehensive plan of support and help when it comes to mental health and well-being.
I'd also like to understand from the Minister how he is taking forward the next review—I'd like to see action now, but I understand the review process that the Welsh Government works to—around trying to facilitate greater access for people living on their own. Because at the moment, obviously, they are going to have little or no contact with other individuals, and again, that has serious implications for mental health and well-being. I do hear what the First Minister said this afternoon about wanting to make progress in this area; I understand progress has been made in other parts of the United Kingdom, namely Scotland, and I would urge the Minister, if he feels able under the current evidence that he has, to try and make progress on this area quicker than just the 21-day review that is currently undertaken.
And finally, the Minister issued a written statement this morning in relation to capacity of Nightingale hospitals going down from 19 across Wales to ten. Obviously, the national lockdown back in the spring was all about suppressing the virus so that ultimately, there wouldn't be a huge burden on the NHS, and this capacity was introduced to try and alleviate such a burden. With the spike in infection rates, with the predictions that I presume the Minister's had sight of, can he gave us confidence that it is prudent to reduce the bed capacity that is available via the Nightingale hospital operation and that he does have confidence that if—and we hope that this won't be the case, but if—it is the case that there is a surge in hospital admissions, the current configuration that he has available to him, and the Welsh NHS has available to him on beds, would be able to cope with a surge in numbers of patients entering the health service across Wales? Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for those comments and questions; I'll try and deal with all of them as quickly as I can. In terms of how the decision making works and the example of the Vale of Glamorgan and others, well, we of course look at the figures and the statistics, so we look at figures on the number of positive cases per 100,000. We have to take into account the fact that we understand that those figures are slightly behind the time, because we still have a challenge in some of the lighthouse lab results coming in later than was the case some weeks ago. So, we always know the figures on the day are somewhat behind the situation. We also look at positivity rates as well, and the testing that is taking place. It's not particularly difficult to see the move in both the number of positive cases, but also the positivity rates. That's the number of new cases per 100 tests being carried out, and so we can understand what's happening in the direction of travel in each area.
We're also looking to act in a way that is not waiting until significant harm has been caused. That means that we have taken action where we can see authorities in, if you like, our amber category, before they get to red and 50 and above. That also takes account of not just the figures, not the just pattern and direction of travel, but the local circumstances, so we understand the spread and the nature of infection rates, how dispersed those are, whether we have clusters that are not explained about where they started. And in that pattern of infections—all of this is set out in the coronavirus control plan that I'm sure the Member has had the opportunity to read following publication of it in the summer. And that also sets out our approach in terms of whether we can undertake local restrictions, not countywide ones. In each and every choice we have made, we have rehearsed and considered the possibility of not taking measures across a whole county borough area, and apart from Llanelli within Carmarthenshire, the case hasn't been made that the pattern of spread is such that we could and should take a local measure in that way—whereas in Carmarthenshire, it was very clear the pattern of spread in Llanelli was not made out in the rest of county. Rural Carmarthenshire has a much lower rate of spread, and if it was just rural Carmarthenshire, we wouldn't have taken additional measures at this point in time at least. So, that's the position that we've taken; it is a regular consideration for us.

Vaughan Gething AC: And on his point about these are really not local measures, the Member is quite simply wrong. These are local restrictions within a local authority area. That is where the measures apply; that is where the point about the reasonable excuse and the travel measures apply. It is the case that if local authorities move at different rates and different paces in terms of their recovery and their suppression of the virus, then we will make choices about that local authority. We won't, for the sake of argument, hold up if progress is made in Caerphilly and Newport, and say that no progress can be made on restoring some of the freedoms we have had to suspend to protect people from harm from coronavirus until other parts of south Wales have made progress too. So, that simply isn't a reasonable measure at all.
In terms of the older persons' commissioner's regular view about the importance of care home visits, we take on board the comments the older persons' commissioner made previously, and the approach of this Government in protecting people from harm, and the concern that action wasn't taken early enough to protect care home residents from the potential harm that community transmission could cause within that area. We produced Welsh Government guidance last week that the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan, issued. Now, that sets out some assistance for decision making, but these are ultimately local authority choices about whether to end visits within their local authority area for their direct provision, and their direct relationship with providers who they commission care from. So, it's a matter for local authorities, taking account of the guidance we have provided, the regular conversations that take place between the Government and social service directors, and, indeed, the note that the older persons' commissioner, which I think was helpfully provided at the start of this week.
On student returns, the education Minister has set out much of the information, as did the First Minister earlier. He'll be aware that there are measures that each university has in place, about not just teaching and learning, but how to undertake control measures. And, more than that, if we do see spikes in infection rates, we're looking to have a conversation that takes account of the community we're dealing with—whether that's students or people in the non-student population. We're not looking to take additional measures around the students that we would not apply to other parts of the community. Now, it may be that the circumstances in which students live and operate in are slightly different, but it's just about the pattern that we see, rather than looking to take extra or extraordinary measures because students may be seeing a rise or fall in infection rates. It's also worth pointing out, as I said before, that the leadership of every university institution and the National Union of Students, at an NUS Wales level and locally, I think have been very responsible in their messaging and leadership on this issue.
In terms of living alone, you've heard what the First Minister had to say: it's a matter of active consideration within the Government, we're looking to see what we can do, and that's in accordance with our 21-day review process. We'll be reporting on Friday. If we could make a decision before then, then it is, of course, open for us to do so, but this is not a matter where we're looking to take weeks and weeks of consideration and avoid making a decision. The First Minister set that out in some detail earlier on today.
On field hospitals in Wales, we are learning from the first wave. You will recall, being a member of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, the briefing we provided to that committee on the reasonable worst-case scenario models and information we're getting from actual data and information here in Wales. That's the basis on which we're planning and the basis on which we're expecting health boards to plan. The field hospital choice that I have made should provide us with the capacity that the Member indicates for that level of assurance. And if we do see a surge, then we should be able to make sure that people are treated appropriately within our system here in Wales, either in expanded direct provision within a national health service hospital, or indeed in one of the newer NHS field hospitals that we have within Wales. But, as ever, we'll need to continue to review the positionas the spread of coronavirus impacts all the choices that we make. But, I hope that we can intervene early enough not to need the full extent of that capacity and the harm that would mean many, many citizens in Wales will be suffering.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for the statement from the Minister. For those who have been keeping an eye on the spread of the virus and the statistics shared with us, unfortunately, today's statement will come as no surprise, perhaps. But, certainly, I feel for those who live within these newly identified areas, in Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire and Wrexham, which are being added to the list of counties under additional restrictions. They are very harsh restrictions that do remove freedoms, and we do hope that this will apply for only a brief period. The message for my constituency in Anglesey, and Gwynedd and other parts of Wales that aren't under restrictions, is that the risk is there. If the figures do rise, and if steps aren't taken by Government and the local population to safeguard themselves, they could be next, as it were.
The Minister will be fully aware that I support taking action as locally as possible. Perhaps he could tell us, in the context of north Wales particularly, how we can have confidence that rural Denbighshire, for example, perhaps doesn't need to face these restrictions. Why take action at a local authority level in this way? I would appeal that they should share that data, as they do in England, which would identify the cases from one area to another in very great detail.
Also, of course, as more areas are included, we are including more and more of the population, and my concern is increasing in terms of the impact on people's well-being and mental health, particularly people living alone. Is the Minister forming any thoughts on a strategy that could reach out to those people who are under the greatest threat of suffering those pressures in terms of mental health and so on? I would be interested to hear how the Government is thinking along those lines.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I want to turn to testing also. We're asking people to behave in a particular way, but the Government has to get its house in order too. It was your call, of course, to depend on the lighthouse labs, instead of controlling our own capacity. The First Minister said earlier today that Wales's in-house capacity would hit 8,000 a day in a few weeks; 5,000 next week, 8,000 a week or two after that. But, I remind you of the promise that we'd be up to 9,000 a day by the end of April within Wales. If we had stuck to that trajectory, I think we'd probably be in a better place than having stuck with lighthouse. This needs resolving, of course, because we need fast testing, fast results, in order to instigate the fast tracing that will help isolate cases. So, your response on that too.
Finally, if I may, to hospital transmission. Now, there's desperate concern, at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital in particular, about a lack of preparation, it seems, for the second wave, despite warnings—not least from over 100 clinicians, I'm told, signing a letter during the summer calling for the establishment of a green site. There are a number of COVID-positive wards at the Royal Glam now, ITU has been operating at capacity and, despite knowing the dangers of hospital transmission, I'm told that they only last week began testing patients as they were admitted to the Royal Glam, other than elective patients. There's still no routine testing of staff, I understand.
So, can the Minister say why this hospital has such high transmission rates, just as in the last wave, why so little seems to have changed, what's been done to protect it and other hospitals and those who work in them and those who are cared for in them? I understand that changes might be about to be introduced to that hospital and how it admits patients and so on, but, if so, why only now, given the long-standing warnings?

Vaughan Gething AC: In terms of your point about local action as opposed to countywide action, I think I've dealt with that in response to Andrew R.T. Davies. It's a regular part of consideration, and you'll see that we've made that choice within Carmarthenshire. We regularly consider the advice that we get from the local incident management teams on the pattern of infection that exists, and we then have to make choices based on the local evidence and intelligence of that. If we're in a position to have a different pattern of measures coming into force, then we would do so. This is all about how we keep Wales safe and how we keep individual communities and groups of communities safe across the country as well.
In terms of your point about loneliness and isolation and the mental health and well-being of people, this is something that we have regularly considered throughout. It's part of the reason why the household bubbles or extended households have been introduced, to make sure that there's a predictable pattern of people meeting each other indoors, because the greatest risk of infection is from your family and your friends. You'll have heard from Rob Orford, the chief scientific adviser on health, last week in the health committee that they are the people who you are most likely to give coronavirus to or to acquire coronavirus from. It's a very, very difficult measure to break apart those household bubble arrangements and its one of the more difficult parts of decision making that we have to confront, so we don't do it lightly.
We are looking, as you know, at individual measures to see whether we can do more, because, certainly, as I've recognised in the statement, I recognise that the measures we take to protect people's lives come with a cost, and, as I say, that is not something that we do lightly at all.
In terms of your regular commentary about testing, you'll be aware that there was no consequential on offer in terms of the lighthouse lab programme. It was a programme for us either to take part in or not, and much of the commentary at the outset was why we weren't taking part in the programme, and you'll recall that I indicated previously that that was because we weren't able to have the data flowing in to us. We are now. We've been able to do it in a consistent way in Wales throughout that period of time. It's why we haven't had some of the challenges that England had recently for a couple of days on the NHS COVID app, because we've managed to arrange our system to have all of that information flowing into the Welsh system and going to our contact tracers and more broadly.
It's also the case, of course, that we're not the only Government that has taken part in the lighthouse lab testing programme. The SNP Government in Scotland took part much earlier than we did, as did the multiparty Government in Northern Ireland. We have, alongside that, built up our own capacity and now we regularly have 3,000 to 4,000 Public Health Wales lab tests being run each day. We expect to see that expanded in the coming days as a regular part and feature of our system. So, we're actually in a place where that is helping to sustain the Welsh testing process at present, whilst we look for lighthouse labs to recover, and we're building into it the expected increase in demand.
On your point on the speed of tracing and not just the success of it, this is a genuine good-news story for Wales. We should be very proud of what our public servants have done across health and local government working together. In the last week when we've published figures, 94 per cent of new cases were successfully traced, and in terms of their contacts, 86 per cent of their contacts were successfully traced and 73 per cent of those contacts were traced within 24 hours. So, we're getting to high numbers of people and we're getting to them very quickly as well. What we want, though, is more information provided to us more quickly to allow our contact tracers to do their job, because that is an essential part of keeping all the other forms of activity open for business across Wales, whether in high or low prevalence areas. But I generally think that people on all political sides and shades can take a share of credit for what NHS Wales test, trace and protect is delivering right across the country.
In terms of the Royal Glamorgan Hospital, the CMO's office has sent out a reminder to all parts of the service about testing patients before they come in. Staff are being tested within the Royal Glamorgan, and any decisions that are made about any further control measures will take place following consideration by the local management team and the local public health agency, together with the local authority as a key partner. Because we will need to think about who needs to be in that hospital and how the red and green zones that are in place in the Royal Glamorgan and in other hospitals—to make sure they're functioning effectively. We understand that some of this is about transmission within the hospital and some of it also comes from the reality that there is a community reservoir of coronavirus that has risen over the last few weeks, which is why Rhondda Cynon Taf is part of the local restrictions regime that we have in place across a number of authorities in Wales. But as and when there is a decision to be made, it'll be a matter for the local health board to take some of these steps, but if I need to make a decision, then I'll make sure that I communicate that to Members and the public as soon as possible.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Health Minister, the COVID-19 pandemic has now claimed over a million people's lives across the world, according to researchers at Johns Hopkins University. In the United Kingdom, the current death toll with coronavirus is 57,860, and in Wales, our death toll is 1,612. These numbers represent human beings—someone's mother, someone's father, someone's brother and someone's sister. As the Member of the Senedd for Islwyn, with its large cluster of Valleys communities that sit within the Caerphilly County Borough Council authority, I welcome the very prompt action the Welsh Government has taken in September, when we saw the number of positive tests rise rapidly. The localised coronavirus restrictions are tough for us all. Humans need to socialise and to live our precious lives in freedom. However, we face a public health crisis not seen in a century. We are our brothers and sisters' keepers, and I want to thank all those across Islwyn who diligently follow the restrictions and who make daily sacrifices to do so.
Health Minister, would you agree with me that Islwyn residents, who are going the distance, obeying the restrictions and making those sacrifices are, firstly, making a difference? Prior to these restrictions, Caerphilly county borough had the highest rate in case rises in Wales, and now has one of the fastest falling, throughout the United Kingdom, down to 50.3 cases per 100,000 people, after more than two weeks in lockdown, and this matters. And to those deniers who think it does not, I refer you to the health professionals invested in your health, your well-being, those who you go to on matters of life and death. And I know that the health Minister—

Rhianon Passmore, this is a statement, and you'll need to ask your question now, please.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. So, to summarise, health Minister, what message, now, would you give to the people of Islwyn about how they can influence the next six months, and what message of hope would you give them that these regulations are needed and work? Thank you, Llywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you to the Member for Islwyn, and I'm happy to confirm that Islwyn residents are indeed making a difference. Caerphilly county borough had, as you say, the highest rate in Wales only a few weeks ago; it's now falling—it's hovering around 50 per 100,000. We want to see that fall, and be a sustained fall, under 50 per 100,000, to allow us to consider returning freedoms that we have had to take away. And, as I say, that is not a light or an easy thing to do; it is a significant intrusion into how people live their lives. I am keen to see that return, but the measures that we have taken in breaking apart extended households, in introducing the restrictions on travel—. We know that there are fewer people travelling within and outside the Caerphilly county borough, we know that, because the infection rates are falling, we can be confident that the measures that people are taking are making a difference, and the hope is, and the expectation is, that if in Caerphilly it can work, then it can work in any and every other part of the country too. So, my thanks are to the team within the Caerphilly county borough, not just at the health board and at the council level, led by Philippa Marsden, but, actually, the residents themselves as well. And that, of course, includes the other constituencies of Caerphilly and the Rhymney part of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney.
And I think that the hope for the future is that it is not inevitable that restrictions have to be a one-way escalator to further and further additional measures and intrusions into people's liberty. I think it is possible to see a reduction and it's up to all of us to do our part—to understand the rules and to follow the rules, and not to look for a way to break the rules, but to recognise they are there for all of us for the benefit of all of us. And if we follow them, it'll be the most effective thing we can do, together with good hand hygiene and social distancing, to reduce the amount of harm that you correctly point out has taken place already within Wales and the rest of the UK.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Minister, for your statement. Many people in north Wales will obviously be quite concerned about the new restrictions that they will now face. Reference has already been made to the need for more localised data, and, of course, this information is published on a ward-by-ward basis in England, but, unfortunately, not so here in terms of the number of cases in immediate localities. And, of course, it's our job to make sure that we scrutinise the Welsh Government's actions, and one of the things that you have consistently said is something that you have to abide by is that the measures that you take have to be proportionate. Well, how do we know whether countywide lockdowns are proportionate if we can't see the data on which you're basing your decisions? I think it's incumbent upon you to publish that information, because I fail to understand and fail to see how, if infection rates are high in one part of a county, the whole of the county and all of those people who live there should face additional restrictions as a result. In Conwy and Denbighshire, there are urban coasts with very rural hinterlands, and we know that the evidence seems to suggest that where there is significant rural sparsity, the infection rates are lower.
The other thing that is very different in north Wales versus those parts of south Wales that currently face these additional restrictions is the fact that north Wales relies heavily on the visitor economy. Around one in seven jobs in my own constituency is reliant on the tourism industry, and they are not just businesses in the tourism industry that employ, but, of course, those other businesses that are non-directly tourism related that also rely on the visitors who come and spend money. The tourism businesses have only had two months' worth of visitors this year, and, generally speaking, it's the fat of the summer months that keeps many of these businesses alive in town centres like Colwyn Bay, Towyn, Kinmel Bay and Ruthin. So, can I ask what additional support you might be able to ensure is available to those businesses, given that they have been particularly hard hit? I heard the statement from the economy Minister earlier, but I don't think that that goes far enough for those businesses that are being hit very hard by the pandemic.
One final question, if I may—

Final, very briefly.

Darren Millar AC: I note that the restrictions on travel in and out of these counties also affect people of faith in a significant way. As I understand it, it's not considered to be a reasonable excuse to travel beyond your local authority border to attend a place of worship of your choice. Now, there are many people of faith who travel across their county borders in order to access services in churches and synagogues of denominations or places of worship of their particular faith. This is not something that I believe is acceptable, and I would urge you, Minister, to look at this again. You've been very considerate of faith communities generally throughout this lockdown, but spiritual well-being is just as important as mental health and physical well-being, and therefore I urge you to look again at that particular restriction to see whether there's some way that that can be addressed.

Vaughan Gething AC: On your final point, I'll look again at the issue, because we do have regular conversations with faith leaders, but this is about keeping people alive in the first instance and how we then try to keep them well, and these are significant intrusions into how people live their lives. I have recognised that not just today, but on many other occasions. What we want to do is to try to take an approach that balances the harm that we know coronavirus causes and to see how we can suppress the virus to allow a different and a more normal, in these certainly not normal times, way for people to go about living their lives. But the starting point has to be how we keep people alive in the first instance.
Look, I understand the point that you've made, not just today, on data, and I have committed to look at it, and I will and I'll come back, not just to Darren Millar, but it's something that I think will probably get taken up in the health committee tomorrow about the data we have and how that's provided, published and made available, not just to Members, but the wider public as well.
But it is important to point out this is not simply a data-driven exercise. The intelligence and evidence we get from our local test, trace and protect teams always plays a role, and the intelligence and evidence we get from local partners working together in the incident management teams that we set out and described clearly within the coronavirus control plan all have a part to play in the choices that we make. And they are always difficult choices as well. The balance of this is not straightforward in what we choose to do and how we choose to try to protect people now and for the future.
Turning to your point about coastal communities and the rural spread, that is a point that we recognise in other parts of the country as well, and I think parts of south Wales have recognised they've got populations along their coast and a rural hinterland as well. It's worth pointing out, of course, that many of the coastal communities in north Wales are particularly vulnerable, because there is a significant number of people who have retired and live in north Wales coastal communities. So, actually, the harm that a significant upswing in coronavirus could cause potentially has the opportunity to cause even greater harm than in other populations.
On your point about tourism, I recognise that tourism is a significant part of the economy in north Wales. I had the opportunity in better times to visit the Llŷn peninsula with my family this year for a week, and I was very impressed with the measures that were in place in that part of Wales to look after residents and tourists alike. The attractions are very clear, and in better times we would all be encouraging people to sample them. It's not the case, though, that there isn’t the same sort of impact within south Wales. I think your characterisation that tourism isn't a significant part of the decision making we have to take account of in the south simply isn't correct. It's not just the Gower or Barry Island that have a tourism impact, and we've had to think about that in each choice that we've made. As I say, they're not simple or straightforward. Ken Skates's announcement has confirmed a significant amount of support that's available for businesses in these areas of local restrictions and a fund specifically targeted at businesses in the tourism sector. We would want to do more and to go further, but it is the reality of our budget position that we can't spend money that we don't have.
We have engaged with the UK Government and other Governments across the UK to look for a more significant support package, because similar arguments are, of course, played out in those 10 million and more people in England who are also having to live with a measure of local restrictions—the impact on businesses there. I certainly hope that the Chancellor will look again at the measures he is able to take to support parts of the economy that are going to be directly affected because of the efforts that every Government will have to take to keep people safe and well.

Finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for your statement, Minister. You're quite right to point out the difficulties for, particularly, retired people, and you'll be aware that, of course, Aberconwy, in terms of demographic, has one of the older populations. Now, I can tell you that a lot of my constituents in that sort of bracket really suffered during the last lockdown, and we had the lighter nights, we had the better weather, so, as we go into the much shorter days and bad weather, I really do fear. So, what support network will you be considering putting in place for those who do live alone? Because, in the midst of the last lockdown, Age UK highlighted research showing that over two fifths of people aged 70 and over said that their mental health had been affected badly by coronavirus. So, I really do fear for this category of people who live alone, often not having any family members around. What support can they have? Can they have even friends—a particular friend—visiting? These are the questions that I will be asked when contacted by my constituents.
What consideration have you given to ensuring that the local lockdown rules are in line with article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, and that is the right to respect for private and family life? What extra resources will you be putting in place for our local authorities? Let's be honest, during the last lockdown, I've got to be honest with you, Conwy County Borough Council stood up and they did provide a strong net of support for our local communities, but that came at a cost to our local authorities, and they are still reeling from the pressures that those—you know, the lack of funding from your Government.
Darren Millar was quite right to mention the economic benefit of tourism to our county—around £900 million. Already this afternoon, in fear of what you may be announcing today, our hospitality businesses are really concerned. Now, last time the UK Government stepped up very well for our businesses. Will you now pledge—I know there's been an announcement today, but will you now pledge your Government will step up and support those businesses? Will they be able to still welcome visitors from within and outside the county?
And finally—[Interruption.]—yes, thank you, Llywydd—finally, currently, care home residents in Conwy are now only tested if showing symptoms. Will you now—given the fiasco that we all witnessed in the last lockdown, will you now be advocating weekly testing for all care home, nursing home, residents and staff? Thank you. Thank you, Llywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions, which I'll deal with in turn. In terms of lone adult households, we have to consider the balance of harm and benefit, and I've answered two questions in this set of questions already on exactly that point, and the First Minister answered questions as well, so the Member will be familiar with the fact that it's a whole-Government consideration, it's under active consideration, and we want to be ableto make a decision within this week, and we'll be clear with people whatever that choice is. It's worth pointing out, of course, that it's not only older adults who sometimes live as lone-adult households; there are individual young and middle-aged adults who live on their own; there are individual parents who live with dependent children who we know have also had some challenges in terms of the loneliness and isolation they have felt. So, we recognise this is a wider challenge.
It's interesting to hear Janet Finch-Saunders talk about human rights and the European convention. The impact on human rights is recognised within the explanatory memorandum for all the regulations that we publish, and it is a recognition that this is an intrusion into a range of rights. And it's the balance in rights and it's recognising that there is a balanced approach to be taken. It's the same challenge that we face every time we introduce regulations in this pandemic, just as every other Government, whether in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, has to do as well.
In terms of your broader calls for spending, I simply don't accept the characterisation the Member tries to paint of funding support for local government. It isn't just that, frankly, local government in Wales has a better funding deal overall than colleagues in England; we have provided a significant upfront funding for local government that was welcomed across the political spectrum within local government. And I think that her comments simply don't reflect the people actually doing the job in local government and the very constructive relationship that we have with them. The meetings that we have had for every set of local restrictions have involved political leaders, regardless of what party they represent. It is a deliberate attempt to work in a very grown-up, mature and constructive way, and the tone of the Member's comments don't really follow the actual business that we're doing with people in positions of responsibility in local government across Wales.
In terms of money for businesses, I think I've dealt with that previously, and Ken Skates has already indicated where we are in terms of support, and of course we want to be able to do more, but the reality of our budget is that, whilst we have powers to do a range of things, we need more money to be able to do so. We're not the only Government in that position and I think there'll be a demand from businesses in every part of the UK for more support, because the pandemic is far from over.
On regular testing, we are providing a regular testing service for staff within the residential care sector. The Member will notice that we have regularly reported on that. I assume that may have slipped attention, in the comments that have been made, but that programme continues—regular testing for our care home staff. There are challenges in the turnaround that are affected by the lighthouse lab testing programme, but we've been more successful than other countries, including England, in delivering a whole-country testing programme. That's been recognised within the sector itself, and we certainly aim to continue that as we move into this next and very difficult phase in the pandemic.

Thank you, Minister.

16. Debate: The National Development Framework

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Caroline Jones and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item is the debate on the national development framework and I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM7392 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the National Development Framework, laid on 21 September 2020.
2. Recognises the substantial engagement and consultation over the last four years which have contributed to the National Development Framework.
3. Agrees that the framework for four regions and the policies in the National Development Framework provide leadership to planning authorities and others in shaping and making good places.
4. Agrees the first National Development Framework provides a firm basis for positive strategic planning decisions which tackle climate change, encourage decarbonisation and promote well-being.
5. Agrees that publishing a National Development Framework will help support a strong recovery from Covid-19.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, the draft national development framework and changes I proposed to make to it were laid with the Senedd to allow Members to scrutinise them for a period of 60 days. In accordance with the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, section 3, I will have regard to any resolution passed by the Senedd and any recommendation made by the Senedd committees during the Senedd's consideration period when I publish the first national development framework next February.
When that time arrives, the title 'national development framework' will be replaced by a new name, 'Future Wales: the national plan 2040'. This new name is much clearer about what we're trying to do. It gives a very positive vision for how development will make Wales a better place by 2040. The new name was suggested by young people from the Children in Wales organisation, and it is for these young people, our future generations, that we will have to deliver a fairer, greener, healthier and more sustainable country.
We have scheduled this debate early in the scrutiny period to introduce the main changes to Members and to help claw back some of the time we lost due to COVID-19. Two Senedd committees—the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, and the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee—have already undertaken detailed inquiries into the draft plan. I am very grateful to both for their reports, and I have written to the respective Chairs with my response, indicating how their comments have shaped the changes we are making.
I will speak in more detail shortly about the changes that I'm proposing to the draft plan, but first I would like to quickly highlight the journey to this point. There's been a participatory plan-making process, and I would like to place on record my gratitude to the thousands of organisations and individualswho have attended events, written to us and contributed their views. The process has been inclusive at every stage and has involved far more than simply consulting on our ideas. We began with a blank map of Wales in stakeholder workshops. We then moved on to focus groups on the key issues and, finally, we discussed the draft plan with the public in drop-in sessions and with stakeholders at more than 75 different events. We've not been able to agree with everyone or incorporate all the ideas that were suggested, but we have listened. I'm very proud of the quality and amount of engagement that's been undertaken and, mainly, I'm proud of how much better the plan has become because of it.

David Melding took the Chair.

Julie James AC: To illustrate how engagement has improved the plan, I will highlight some of the main proposed changes. The rules dictate that the version laid with the Senedd is the published draft but, in reality, the changes proposed as a consequence of the consultation responses and the committee's recommendations are more important at this stage. To show how these changes will be integrated, we have published an updated working version of the plan. This has no formal status, but it does clearly show how the plan is evolving. The working version is more obviously a spatial plan than the draft. It contains more maps, more data and more graphics. It tries to convey just how varied and unique places in Wales are. This is a plan that encourages and enables creative planning, not a series of clone towns and unremarkable suburbs.
In an ideal world, the national plan should have been the first plan written. This would have allowed local development plans to focus on creative placemaking at the local scale. Instead, LDPs have for 10 years had to carry the burden of providing all development plan policies. There will be significant benefits to LDPs from having a national plan in place: no more policies duplicated across all authorities, and the time and space to focus on proactively identifying development sites and regeneration opportunities.
The middle tier of the development plan will be the strategic development plans. This national plan offers a clear steer on the spatial priorities for each region. Taken together with the regional economic frameworks and city deals, each region will have a full suite of strategies to help them confidently plan their region.
A major proposed change is to switch from three regions to a four-region footprint. This involves separating mid Wales and the south-west. The feedback from within this Chamber and from stakeholders in mid Wales, in particular, was that they wanted to be recognised as a region in their own right. This brings expectations that the strategic development plan will now be prepared jointly by Ceredigion and Powys councils on the planning matters that transcend the area.
The criticism of the regional footprint was linked to a concern that the overall strategy focused too heavily on urban areas, with not enough for rural areas. This has presented us with a challenge, because a national plan must be strategic and leave detailed matters to regional and local plans, but it must also speak to the whole of Wales. Therefore, we have developed further policies for the rural economy, as well as new spatial policies for mid Wales. We must recognise, however, that the degree and scale of change over 20 years will inevitably be different in rural areas compared to urban places. We want to support and encourage rural economies and we want good public services and a range of amenities, but we don't want development at any cost. I hope that people will recognise the balance this plan is trying to achieve.
To ensure growth is sustainable, we have added new policies on transport. The link between land-use planning and transport planning is a crucial one, and too often in the past the thought process focused on how to enable cars to get around easily and quickly. We need to promote places that are walkable, and we need to connect places by active travel in an integrated way. The transport policies are really important in helping us deliver the urban growth that the spatial strategy promotes in a sustainable way.
The final change I want to address in detail is the policy on renewable energy. Clean green energy is vital to our sustainability as a country, as communities and as individual households. We have the raw ingredients in our landscape and climate to lead the way, and this plan reflects that ambition. The spatial policy for renewable energy has been amended. Some areas have been changed, and two have been removed altogether, but, crucially, I think we are communicating our intentions better in the revised policy. This is, again, a product of extensive engagement, and I'm confident that the revised plan will really help to energise the renewable sector here in Wales.
No debate or discussion this year is complete without, unfortunately, mentioning COVID-19. To a large degree, the make-up of where we live determined how we felt during lockdown. If you had good access to green open spaces, if there were shops nearby and if you lived in a place with community spirit, the lockdown was less stressful than it could have been. This is where this plan can help us—to make places that are resilient and better prepared for sudden health crises, and to be more enjoyable places to live during normal times.
In my foreword to the draft plan, I wrote:
'The challenge for a plan like the NDF is not necessarily to predict how Wales might change over the next 20 years, but to make sure we canbuild a society and an economy that is flexible and resilient, to enable all of us to benefit from the changes in a sustainable way.'
The scale of change that has come about almost overnight is remarkable, but I do truly believe this plan is fundamentally equipped to help the recovery from COVID-19. I am confident it can help with the recovery because the plan has enabling a healthy and active society as an engrained priority throughout. It strongly promotes building new places around active travel infrastructure. It has the ambition and policies to deliver world-class digital infrastructure everywhere in Wales. It contains policies that, even before COVID emerged, sought to diversify and revitalise town centres and local high streets. It says new public services like schools, colleges and hospitals should be accessible in town centres, not out of town, where you need a car to reach them. It emphasises the importance of maintaining and developing natural ecosystems.
The main strength of this plan and the changes we're proposing to it are the big priorities of this Government, and the key changes facing us all are built into the strategy and the policies. Issues like health, decarbonisation, climate change, the Welsh language, and a fair, prosperous society are woven through all parts of the document. 'Future Wales' is an important plan, and it is ambitious about the change we can achieve in Wales. The changes we have laid through the Senedd will strengthen it. I hope this debate can highlight the importance of the plan and build support for it across all parts of the Chamber. Diolch, Llywydd.

David Melding AC: Thank you, Minister. The Presiding Officer has selected two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Caroline Jones to move amendment 1 in her name.

Amendment 1—Caroline Jones
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Believes thatthe first National Development Framework should provide a firm basis for positive strategic planning decisions which tackle climate change, encourage decarbonisation and promote well-being.
Regrets the fact that, once again, the Welsh Government has opted to place too much emphasis on on-shore wind.
Calls upon the Welsh Government to redraft the National Development Framework to focus upon achieving carbon neutral energy production from a mix of off-shore wind and tidal energy.

Amendment 1 moved.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, acting Presiding Officer. I formally move the amendment tabled in my name.
The national development framework should provide us with the opportunity to tackle one of the biggest threats facing our nation—that of climate change. The effects of our changing climate have been felt quite dramatically in recent years. Whilst coronavirus may be dominating the 2020 headlines, the impact of climate change has been just as dramatic. Wildfires have decimated large parts of Australia and North America. The Caribbean and southern United States have faced one of the worst hurricane seasons ever; for the first time, two hurricanes struck at once. In south-east Asia, the typhoon season saw back-to-back super-typhoons, bringing destruction and loss of life. Closer to home, the UK was battered by storms, leading to widespread flooding in many parts of Wales.
The evidence that human activity has caused lasting damage to our climate is undeniable. We cannot deny that our actions have led to an increasing global temperature, which has had a dramatic impact upon our weather systems. Years of inaction, continued carbon dioxide emissions and outright denial have meant it is too late to stop rising global temperatures. And unless we take action now, things will get much, much worse. We have to tackle carbon emissions now, and that means ensuring that our energy production and transport infrastructure is carbon neutral at the very least.
Welsh Government Ministers have accepted this, hence the declaration of a climate emergency. Unfortunately, they haven't followed it up with urgent action. The national development framework should have been a blueprint for increasing development in a sustainable way that not only benefits the people of Wales, but also addresses the threat of climate change. And once again, the Welsh Government have placed too much focus on onshore wind. Large-scale onshore windfarms are not the answer; we would have to fill every available hill with turbines, and even then we would not address Wales's energy needs—not that anyone would accept the impact of all these turbines. I would have thought that the Welsh Government would have learnt from the opposition to technical advice note 8. They are clearly unaware of the impact of onshore windfarms, as they have banned them from our national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. But that is of little comfort to my region, which has, once again, been identified for a windfarm. Once again, Welsh Ministers have opted for the easy option, designating permitted development for onshore windfarms so that they can pay lip service to tackling climate change. Onshore wind cannot replace fossil-fuel generation in Wales. If they are serious, decarbonisation would be the primary goal of this framework and it would heavily focus on offshore wind and tidal generation. Tidal lagoons could meet Wales's future energy needs and a tidal barrage could meet the UK's energy needs. This is the sort of development we should be pursuing. And, yes, it would be expensive in terms of upfront cost but would be so much cheaper in the long run.
We are at crunch point—unless we take difficult decisions now, we are condemning future generations to live with an onslaught of natural disasters and famine. All development decisions we take should be focused upon ensuring that we prevent further damage to our planet. I urge Welsh Government to rethink their development framework to take this into account, and if you agree with me, please support my amendment. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

David Melding AC: I call Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 2, tabled in Darren Millar's name.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
Does not believe that the Welsh Government's National Development Framework will deliver a future for Wales which is prosperous, sustainable and provides equal opportunities for all of its citizens.

Amendment 2 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Now, I stand to raise some concerns about the national development framework. For a start, the regional approach itself is flawed, especially when looking at north and mid Wales. Whilst the gross value added per head in Anglesey is £15,000 and in Gwynedd is £21,308, the main focus for the region is Flintshire and Wrexham, both with higher GVAs. Does the Minister not agree with me that policy 17 or policy 20 in the schedule of changes should be amended so that the whole of north Wales benefits, and, as such, primary focus could be shared between Wrexham, Deeside and the Caernarfon, Bangor and Menai straits area?
Whilst noting the aim of policy 25 in the schedule of changes, which is to support sustainable growth and development in a series of interconnected towns across mid Wales, why not introduce a policy putting Aberystwyth on the same level as Wrexham and Swansea as the main focus for investment? This could actually help drive up investment along the west coast and through mid Wales, and provide equal opportunity for all citizens.
Now, the voice of our residents must be heard in this plan. Policy 21 states that communities like Llandudno, Colwyn Bay and Prestatyn will be a focus for managed growth and housing. So, what assurances, Minister, can you give residents worried that policies such as 21 and 29 will not undermine their efforts to save our green fields? In fact, I believe that there are only two references to brownfieldsites and developments in the whole NDF. Surely, it would be a positive move to produce a policy that gives priority to developments in such areas.
The NDF also fails our rural communities. This line in policy 4 says it all:
'The future for rural areas are best planned at the regional and local level.'
You could do better than this. Why not introduce policies that champion the saving of rural schools and facilities, improvement of B roads and access, and Welsh Government working with digital communication providers to ensure that the needs of rural areas are addressed, and utilisation of the more than 600 rivers flowing across Wales through encouraging investment in micro and small-scale hydro schemes? You claim that the NDF provides a firm basis to tackle climate change. Any green energy drive would be hampered by the grid. RenewableUK have reported that networks in Wales are not resilient. Marine Energy Wales have called for the addressing of grid capacity issues, with vital infrastructure upgrades to accommodate the 50GW potential. And even the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs has noted the need for new infrastructure to achieve decarbonisation targets.
According to policy 17, you will work with stakeholders to transition to a multivector grid network and reduce the barriers for implementation of new grid infrastructure. So, I would like more detail on this, a target for when the infrastructure should be improved, and assurances that, should new grid infrastructure be built across mid Wales, funding will be made available to put this below ground. For example, the beauty of rural Wales must be protected, and, if necessary, through the expansion or creation of national parksor AONBs. If no action is taken on grid capacity, how can you be sure that new windfarms at the pre-assessed areas for wind energy in mid Wales can connect? It is claimed that policy 17 recognises the wealth of current and emerging renewable energy technologies, so why, then, is there a presumption in favour of large-scale wind energy development? Why not all renewable energy sources? Will you change the NDFso that it really is about all of Wales, with attention given to the sea and marine energy also?
Finally, Wales also needs a stronger commitment on transport. Policy 36 notes that the South East Wales Transport Commission is advising on tackling congestion on the M4. You should just get on and deliver a relief road. This NDF lacks ambition for the whole of Wales, and, as such, I encourage you all to support the Welsh Conservative amendment. Thank you. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I disagree with what the Minister said earlier, because the main message from me to Government on the national development framework is that circumstances now require the Government to take a step back and review the framework in light of the pandemic. Because we have reached this point, and it has taken a very long time to get to this point—I appreciate that—but that happened with barely no consideration of the long-term impact of the pandemic on our lives, and we are still learning and understanding some of those impacts, and there will be others over the next few months that we haven't anticipated. Therefore, that needs to be fully evaluated.
We know that more people will work from home and that that will mean that there will be fewer people travelling to work, and there will be more far-reaching implications for certain sectors as opposed to others in that regard. Digital infrastructure and broadband is going to be far more crucial in the future. High-density developments, of course, will now be seen as something that hastens a pandemic and, therefore, less desirable, and most certainly less desirable within planning policy. The quality of housing is more crucial than ever now from a health perspective. Access to green spaces, public parks and private gardens are becoming increasingly important. And, with less traffic, there will be more emphasis on public transport. But there are new challenges in that regard too, in terms of regaining public confidence when it comes to the management of diseases. All of these things have implications in terms of the national development framework.
And there are implications in terms of social justice too, because if the Government were to adopt a laissez-faire attitude, then I think it would intensify problems in terms of social justice. Because it's people who have the means and the wealth to work from home as an easier option who will then see rural areas as being more attractive than urban life, and that will have an impact in terms of population shift within Wales and beyond. And there are implications, as we have discussed in the Senedd recently, in terms of people being pushed out of their own communities. And the national development framework does mention the importance of mixed-age communities in rural areas. Well, that, in itself, means that we do have to review certain aspects of this.
I have heard the Minister say that we've moved from three regions to four, and that's an improvement, of course, but the document doesn't recognise the Arfon region that Plaid Cymru has been pursuing, and which the Welsh Government has supported with a budget to develop that concept and entity. I think it's a mistake to omit that from the plan as an area that has unique, specific challenges and opportunities along the western coast, and I would like to see that corrected in the final framework.
In terms of the north Wales region—and I'll be slightly parochial here—I do think there is an imbalance across north Wales. It's quite right that there should be a focus on Wrexham and Deeside as a growtharea, but the rest of north Wales, over to Bangor, Caernarfon and Holyhead, is designated with a sub-regional role to support that growth area in the north-east. Now, I'm not quite sure how practical that is. Shouldn't we be focusing on the growth of north-west Wales itself, rather than it being a sub-region to north-east Wales? And, of course, reference is made to Wylfa in the document. Well, that element has substantially changed now with the uncertainty about the development there and, clearly, that is something that the Government would have to respond to. I know that some people will be eager to ensure that Wylfa still happens, but I do think that this framework does have to reflect the possibility that we will need to look at alternative developments in order to ensure that we're not always just waiting for something that may never happen.
More broadly speaking, I am pleased that wind energy and solar technology are separated, but I'm still concerned about this spatial approach that has been put in place, which, as I've raised before, is not on firm foundations and which will mean that less than 5 per cent of the areas that are pre-assessed—. Only some 5 per cent of the pre-assessed areas will be able to be developed in reality.
I still have some questions, but no time, of course, to pursue things such as the broader vision for rural areas and the Welsh language within the affordable housing scheme. I would have liked to have talked more about that. I welcome and thank the Government for the opportunity to have this debate. I'm slightly disappointed that it's happening so soon after the new development framework was laid, because it is a substantial document and having to debate it just days after it was laid is slightly unfair, I think. But I am pleased that the climate change committee will be scrutinising it in more detail and that, hopefully, on the back of the report of that committee, we can have a further debate here in the Senedd in order to discuss some of the more detailed issues that I would want to see the Government putting right and changing before I can support the national development framework.

Mike Hedges AC: I generally welcome the national development framework proposals. The changes proposed greatly improve the draft. As Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government accepted 47 of the committee's 50 conclusions, although again disappointed that 22 of them were in principle only. And as Llyr Gruffydd said, we'll come back with further suggestions, I would imagine, later on after we've had a further chance to look at it.
Significant changes that are consistent with the committee's conclusion include: clearer links to other Welsh Government documents, such as 'A Low Carbon Wales', the transport strategy, and the 'Wales Infrastructure Investment Plan'; providing more detail about how the NDF will be monitored and reviewed; strengthening the NDF in terms of responding to climate change, for example, by including a new policy on flood risk management; and greater emphasis on the criteria-based approach to renewable energy developments.
The four-region model is a huge improvement on the three regions, which included a giant mid and west Wales, which had places that have nothing in common whatsoever. The Swansea bay region is now a national development framework region and that is hugely beneficial to the area and to its future economic development. And I'm also sure that those in Powys and Ceredigion, where they have the mid Wales growth deal, are also pleased with the change to create the mid Wales region rather than being tacked on to outer Swansea.
Regional policy is important in Wales and we need to develop all of Wales, not just one small part of it. I believe that it is important that we develop a coherent regional policy. We need to ensure that Welsh Government services stay within the regional framework. I think, now we've got these four regions, can we start thinking in terms of these regions rather than every Minister having their own little set-up?
The plan has three national growth areas, three regional growth areas, and four regions with their own strategic development plans. I think that can work. Swansea bay development will be driven, at least in part, by the universities, and I again ask for the economic strategy, which I know is not part of this, to promote high-skill and high-value employment based upon the research carried out at the universities and the graduates coming out of it.
Cities have, historically, driven growth within a region, but will that be true of the post-COVID economy, where more people will be working from home? We know we have two types of villages: the commuter villages and the rural economy villages. Seven years ago, a study was done on Rhossili, a rural village on the Gower peninsula, which I am sure the Minister knows well. Whilst it might be thought that tourism and agriculture would be the main employers in this area, it was found that over a third of the working population living in that village worked in education, mainly at the universities.
On housing within the plan, each region has its own allocation for new housing by 2039. These numbers need to be kept under constant review. Also, the distribution within each region, as well as between regions, needs to also be under review, because if people are going to work more from home, the need to have people travelling into cities and living on the outskirts of cities will reduce. I welcome that 48 per cent of new homes across Wales are to be affordable homes during the first five years. I would, however, prefer the term 'affordable' to be replaced by 'council' or 'registered social landlord provided' housing.
I welcome the natural resources policy that identifies the key priorities, risks and opportunities to achieve the sustainable management of natural resources, including addressing the climate change emergency and reversing biodiversity decline. If those two things can be done, this would be a success, because I have serious concerns about the decline in biodiversity and I have very serious concerns about the effect of climate change and the effect on weather. Anybody who's over 50 years of age will have noticed how the rain comes much less often but much stronger than it ever did before. It is setting out specific policies that: safeguard areas for the purposes of improving the resilience of ecological networks and ecosystems, identifying areas for the provision of green infrastructure and to secure biodiversity enhancement; ensure resilient location and design choices by promoting a sustainable growth strategy as well as ensuring that consideration of natural resources and health and well-being form part of site and design choices; and, consider the decarbonisation of the economy.
Finally, I look forward to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee looking at this in more detail. I believe this is a very good document. Our challenge is to make it a better document and to make it work for the people of Wales.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you, Minister, for this statement today. The work involved in the development of this framework is self-evident—[Inaudible.] Sorry, there's something in the background.
The work involved in the development of this framework is self-evident, and I send my congratulations to your staff for bringing this forward in such challenging times. The framework is a wide-ranging and comprehensive document and it makes sense that development and planning cascade from Government to regions and finally to be more locally focused at authority level. I do, though, get a strange sense of déjà vu here: another lengthy consultation, another weighty tome of warm words about future generations, the homes that Wales needs, ecosystems and the climate change emergency. In the mix, as usual, is sustainability, active travel, town centres first, et cetera. All of these phrases are very well worn and appear in some form or other in a lot of Welsh Government consultations. It does, though, make perfect sense to divide the country up into regions and for planning to take place on this basis.
I never saw the point—and still don't—of an international convention centre being built in Newport and now I believe there is another one planned for central Cardiff, with all the travel issues that may entail, when north Wales and possibly Wrexham would greatly benefit from such a venue. And while I applaud many of the sentiments behind this approach, why will this approach work when the local development planning process was not taken up by every local authority in a timely or meaningful manner? And let's look at the local level: despite Labour's manifesto pledge in 2016, to—and I quote—
'seek to create stronger, larger local authorities',
you have done no such thing despite consultations and commissions and there is still a 22-way bun fight for the spoils, which rather flies in the face of regionalisation. So, how will that work?
The document covers several areas, and due to time constraints I'll limit my remarks to just a couple of areas. Housing: it seems to me that the public sector holds many cards in this area. It has land, brownfield sites, defunct buildings—all the more so now that public sector workers are asked to stay at home—and your own staff administer the social housing grant and the public sector in Wales can call upon innovative financial schemes. So, at risk of repeating verbatim my remarks from last week's debate on second homes, why do you need a development framework to give everyone permission to do what they already can do?
Wales is a small and very beautiful country, and while I can see merit in looking at sustainable energy and heating schemes across the country, I'm disappointed once again to see that wind farms remain in the mix. These are quite simply blots on the landscape and the seascape and no one ever seems to factor in the massive decommissioning costs in terms of money and carbon. Plus the fact that you won't get a windfarm in my valley, as we've already seen them off. We have a site in north Wales right for a new, clean nuclear power station and much of the legwork has already been done for tidal power schemes, so what other forms of energy generation did you consider and then discount, and what was the reaction of those living locally to these priority areas?
I see that once again in the Welsh Government document, 'town centre first' features. Will you undertake here and now to make sure that the Welsh public sector starts to really channel this? The Welsh Government's own flagship buildings in north Wales, Merthyr and Aberystwyth fall well short of the mark of being located close enough to town centres to make any sort of real difference to town centres, especially now. And Wales's newest hospital near Cwmbran, while it looks absolutely magnificent, is not particularly easily accessible, especially for visitors, and nowhere near a town centre or district that will benefit from its opening. So, my final question to you, Minister, is: will the public sector in Wales, including the Welsh Government, lead by example here, or will it be another case of do as I say? Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr, Minister. I've enjoyed reading this latest iteration, which will culminate, as you say, in the 'Future Wales: the national plan 2040'. As Mike Hedges has said, whose committee and another committee have been following this in detail—as I have from the backbenches—it is a real step forward. It's developed a lot of the themes that were picked up earlier and has incorporated into what I think is a much more readable plan. But my overriding feeling is that, ultimately, it's not just that the devil is in the detail, but the devil is in the implementation of this as well, because I think you've got all the right things in here and it does pull together the various Welsh policies.
So, let me just first of all touch on what I definitely welcome. I definitely welcome the fact that this is running—to pick up Llyr's point earlier on—this is running alongside and being informed by the piece of work that Jeremy Miles is doing, which is building back that green economic recovery post COVID. I think, Llyr, this definitely needs to inform this piece of work, to make it a live piece, a live document going forward, and I think that's where the five-yearly review comes in as well. This shouldn't be a stick it out there and it's stuck then until 2040. This needs to be regularly informed and reviewed.
I welcome—despite the scepticism of other people—the fact that this is deeply shot through and underpinned by the well-being of future generations Act. That is a critical difference of what we're doing in Wales from other places, but again, the devil comes in the detail and the implementation. The fact that this is co-produced, the fact that this is built upon the pillars of looking after this and future generations, both inter- and intra-generational focus, is very, very welcome indeed. It's a different way of thinking, and I will not resile from repeating that, but what we now need to see is that made good with the various policies that flow from this. I welcome as well the fact that the integrated sustainability appraisals are part and parcel of the approach throughout this document, and I very much welcome and I pick up on what the Minister has said here: it just shouts out because of the way the changes have come through in this since the last iteration, the co-production, the engagement with people—not just committees here, but the wider Welsh public—where it screams out in the latest September 2020 version that we now have in front of us.
I definitely, definitely would applaud the focus on strategic placemaking, because this is critical: the idea of having places that are walkable and liveable places with mixed uses, with green infrastructure being part and parcel of the way you develop that placemaking, both locally and within a town and within a street, even, and the idea that within that placemaking, you also have plot developments set aside for people; that it's not just the big placemakers, the big companies and developers, it's others can come in and self-develop their own plots within areas for house building and so on.
I do, despite the sceptical tone of others, welcome the focus that is on 'town centre first' policy. For too long, quite frankly, we've lived in this strange context where we promote out-of-town development come what may, and we've seen the hollowing out of our towns. Now, we already faced the battle before we got to COVID, so I really welcome it, but, again, it's making it stick. The devil is going to be in the detail and the application of making this 'town centre first' policy really stick. And in all the town centres—so, market towns in mid Wales, as well as Valleys towns as well, strip Valleys towns that run along one street, making them vibrant parts of the community once again, instead of taking it out.
I really welcome the focus, I have to say, on nature-based solutions to flood management and coastal erosion. We've been saying this for decades, I was saying it when I was in Government in the UK Government, in terms of the shift we had to make, the seismic shift in the way we address these issues away from an over-reliance on built solutions, which are sometimes necessary, to a much greater reliance on natural solutions. I'm not sure, David, how much time I've got left, but I'm going to keep on—

David Melding AC: Twenty seconds.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Oh, in that case, one thing: can I ask you very much, please, to focus on the issue of grid capacity? It's too expensive to actually develop existing grid capacity. I don't have trust in Ofgem that they can actually use their pricing mechanism under the UK Government to actually do greater grid connectivity. So, whether, frankly, it's wind, PV, offshore, onshore or any other sort of one, unless we have those grids connected, then we're not going to get it done. So, that's my appeal to you, Minister.

David Melding AC: Thank you. And the final speaker before the Minister replies, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Chair. I just wanted to make a few comments on energy, specifically the interaction or lack of interaction between the ambition for renewable energy onshore and offshore. May I say, first of all, that I'm pleased to see the revised document turn its back on the idea of allowing huge wind turbines across Anglesey? In reality, the Anglesey landscape would have made it almost impossible to get planning permission for those kinds of turbines that were recommended in the first draft. Anglesey is very flat and there's a population across the island, and you shouldn't be building these 250m wind turbines in that kind of landscape, which is higher than the highest point on Anglesey. So, common sense seems to have prevailed there.
But as a representative of an island, I spend much of my time looking out to sea and considering the potential of that marine environment, and I can't quite understand how a document that is so important, the national development framework, shouldn't include the potential for offshore energy. There are excuses being referred to as to why there is no reference to marine energy, and that it's the national marine plan that deals with that, and that the NDF is focused on terrestrial issues. But the reality is that the marine plan is very ambiguous and vague on its ambition in terms of marine energy. We can see huge potential off Anglesey with Morlais andMinesto and also further wind energy developments to the west of the current developments off the northern coast.
The national development framework does specifically mention creating 70 per cent of our electricity from renewable sources. All well and good, but if we're only looking at onshore, then what about marine energy? If we had your onshore and offshore teams talking to each other, then surely we could create 100 per cent of our electricity from renewable sources, and our seas would produce most of that energy.
There are very specific reasons why this is important in my constituency. We've heard mention of Wylfa and the fact that that development has been paused. I want to see—and it makes sense—offshore wind energy developments off the coast of north Wales, to the west of the current ones, are served from the port of Holyhead, rather than Mostyn, which has done very well in serving the other windfarms. The development framework needs to be very specific in saying, 'Right, there are marine wind energy developments here that could bring us real benefits onshore in areas such as Anglesey'. So, speak to each other, both teams, the onshore and the offshore. We could get a better framework for the future in doing so.

David Melding AC: The Minister to reply to the debate.

Julie James AC: I'm unmuted now, hopefully. Thank you very much, acting Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank all Members very much for their contributions to this afternoon's debate. The range of views expressed today is a reflection of just how wide-ranging this plan is and the breadth of challenges it will help us to meet over the next 20 years.
In overall terms, to address contributions, 'Future Wales' will help us achieve decarboniastion and address the twinned emergencies in our climate and biodiversity. 'Future Wales' will also drive up standards of development and help to deliver placemaking. With it, this generates healthy, active communities and the conditions for a diverse vibrant economy of local businesses. And indeed, 'Future Wales' addresses national priorities such as affordable housing and renewable energy, and empowers regions and local authorities to decide the scale of development appropriate to their area and the detailed locations for development.
Coming back to a few of the very specific comments made by Members this evening, decarbonising energy will be a key part of delivering our climate goals. We must decarbonise in a way that improves well-being in Wales through a managed transition supported by investment and innovation.
The national development framework only relates to onshore developments. The climate change crisis means action onshore and offshore, and 'Future Wales' and the marine plan together address energy and reflect the energy hierarchy as set out in 'Planning Policy Wales'. Both plans recognise that there are a number of opportunities to generate renewable energy across a variety of technologies, both onshore and offshore, which will be maximised to help the targets.
It's worth saying at this point, I think, Deputy Presiding Officer, that of course this is part of a suite of documents. As many Members did say in their commentary, it is very essential to read this together with a range of other plans. This is not a one-size-fits-all plan. A number of Members have made contributions about what it should contain, and I haven't time to go through them all, but many of them are of course contained in other sister documents to this particular document.
I also just want to emphasise that the national development framework recognises the importance of smaller towns, especially in north Wales, allowing for local and regional plans to add that detail. I do not believe local communities want central Government to plan their futures. It is right and proper that local and distinctive rural issues are best dealt with at the local level to reflect the different characteristics of places across Wales. We do not want cloned towns and areas; we want our local communities to have a say in what their local communities look like. This is not about central government saying how that should work.
In terms of the grid, which several people raised, we are working with the UK Government, Ofgem, distribution network operators and National Grid, who are responsible for the grid across the UK, to ensure they deliver an energy system that enables the low-carbon transition in Wales. I recognise the comments many Members have made, which is why we're working with them.
I terms of delaying the plan some more, the important things such as climate change were important before the pandemic and, if anything, they're more important now. So, we don't want to see any further delay in this. We are having this debate at the start of the 60-day period. I am very much looking forward to continuing to debate it through that period.
Many Members also mentioned digital communication. So, just to point out, there is a new policy supporting digital communication in the plan. We also have a 'town centre first' policy for the public sector, in response to points a number of other colleagues made, and we are working specifically with marine plan colleagues, especially on the offshore/onshore interface. But, the national development framework does not deal with offshore; that's for the marine plan. We also, of course, have very specific policies on areas such as Holyhead and other important ports.
Acting Deputy Presiding Officer, I don't have time to go through all of the individual contributions that Members made, but the next step for this plan is now in the hands of this Senedd. It has 60 days, up to 26 November, to set out its views on the changes I have proposed and on the emerging final plan. I understand the climate change committee certainly intends to set time aside to gather evidence and I'd be very happy to go into more detail on the proposed changes with them over the next coupleof months.
Once I have received the Senedd's views, I intend to make quick progress towards finalising the plan. I sense that there is a real expectation and anticipation amongst developers, local authorities and communities for this all-important top tier of the development plan system to be completed and put into practice as soon as possible. So, my intention is to publish 'Future Wales: the national plan' in February. At that point, I will also lay out how I have taken the Senedd's views on board. I genuinely hope that this early debate will help Members to take the opportunity to read the emerging plan and the changes we've made since last summer to strengthen it. A 20-year plan is a big opportunity to shape our country and to make good on our promises of a fairer, greener, healthier and more prosperous country. Diolch.

David Melding AC: Thank you. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I defer all voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

David Melding AC: There will now be a break of five minutes before voting time takes place. IT are on hand to support any Member who needs help during that time.

Plenary was suspended at 19:56.
The Senedd reconvened at 20:02, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

17. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote is on the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 10) (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Regulations 2020, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, 10 abstentions, seven against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 3 - The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No 10) (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Regulations 2020: For: 37, Against: 7, Abstain: 10
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, 10 abstentions, seven against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 4 - The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020: For: 37, Against: 7, Abstain: 10
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is onthe Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) (Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport etc.) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, 10 abstentions, and seven against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 5 - The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) (Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport etc.) Regulations 2020: For: 37, Against: 7, Abstain: 10
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, 11 abstentions, and five against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 6 - The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020: For: 38, Against: 5, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Land Transaction Tax (Temporary Variation of Rates and Bands for Residential Property Transactions) (Wales) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, two abstentions, none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The Land Transaction Tax Regulations: For: 52, Against: 0, Abstain: 2
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the Curriculum Requirements (Amendment of paragraph 7(6) of Schedule 17 to the Coronavirus Act 2020) (Wales) Regulations 2020. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, 12 abstentions, one against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The Curriculum Requirements Regulations: For: 41, Against: 1, Abstain: 12
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next votes are on the national development framework. The first vote is on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Caroline Jones. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour one, no abstentions, 53 against, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Amendment 1 - Debate - tabled in the name of Caroline Jones: For: 1, Against: 53, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 30 against, and therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 2 - Debate - tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 24, Against: 30, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I call for a vote on the motion, therefore, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. In favour 30, no abstentions, 24 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Debate: The National Development Framework - Motion - tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans: For: 30, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings our voting to a close, and today's proceedings to a close. Thank you all very much.

The meeting ended at 20:12.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Dai Lloyd: What assessment has the First Minister made of the UK Internal Market Bill currently making its way through the UK Parliament?

Mark Drakeford: The Bill would have profound and damaging effects on Wales—on our businesses, our citizens and our constitution. It has been introduced with very little engagement or even advance warning. If the Bill is not withdrawn, the Senedd’s consent should be withheld unless very significant amendments are made.

Angela Burns: What emphasis does the Welsh Government place on its statutory goals in fulfilling its economic development objectives?

Mark Drakeford: The seven statutory well-being goals of the Well-being of Future Generations Act 2015 shape all of this Government’s activity, including the design and delivery of our economic action plan. The well-being goals will also frame the economic reconstruction task we face due to the impact of COVID-19.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of COVID-19 on primary care in Ynys Môn?

Mark Drakeford: The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is working alongside practices on Ynys Môn to provide multidisciplinary primary care in all parts of the island.

Hefin David: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of local coronavirus restrictions on people's mental health and well-being?

Mark Drakeford: We continue to monitor the impact of the pandemic on mental health and well-being through a range of surveys and other evidence, both in Wales and across the UK. The Minister for Health and Social Services will make a detailed statement on our actions to respond to changing mental health needs shortly.